This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

[Luke Warm]

greygoose said:

I can't really see that this man has lived the dream.

Relatively speaking. Compared to his parents' and grandchildren's generations, he's lived the dream. Moved out young, got a job easily, travelled the globe, owns a house, retired at 53(!), has a generous pension (by the standards of 50 years ago and 50 years hence), house probably worth 10 times what he paid for it 30 years ago...

Those days are over. It's the young Greeks I feel sorry for as they have a lifetime of misery ahead of them. He's been lucky.

[ian in lancs]

Luke Warm said:

Relatively speaking. Compared to his parents' and grandchildren's generations, he's lived the dream. Moved out young, got a job easily, travelled the globe, owns a house, retired at 53(!), has a generous pension (by the standards of 50 years ago and 50 years hence), house probably worth 10 times what he paid for it 30 years ago...

Those days are over. It's the young Greeks I feel sorry for as they have a lifetime of misery ahead of them. He's been lucky.

Where did you get that info from?

[anonymous-user]

Evoluzione said:

It is a very sad sight to see, someone came up with a figure (few quid) last week that if everyone in GB donated it would pull them out of the st.

Yes they did but they had the sums wrong. It would take 60M x quite a few thousand pounds each to really help Greece get out of the situation that they and the EU have created.

[Luke Warm]

ian in lancs said:

Where did you get that info from?

That's typical of his generation all over Europe but I'm happy to be corrected if you know differently?

[MajorProblem]

Perhaps he's just been presented with the bill for all the tax he's dodged over his lifetime.

It's that or it's something to do with wearing socks with sandals.

[doosht]

i see an upset man and others see a man wearing socks with sandals. That's the human race i guess, sadly.

[ian in lancs]

Luke Warm said:

It's always sad when an old man cries but this chap has lived the dream.

His grandchildren will live the nightmare.

Hmm, born at the start of WWII, lived through Italian and German occupation and post war austerity, had to leave homeland to find work in dangerous industries (manual work due to lack of education?) in his occupiers country (spoke German?) now finds his homeland in financial and political turmoil. Not quite living the dream. If, however, he was a child of the 60's give or take in Northern Europe, received a good education and found a decent job or worked himself up then you may be right but unlikely in this case. I certainly wouldn't swop my dream for his.

[ian in lancs]

Luke Warm said:

ian in lancs said:

Where did you get that info from?

That's typical of his generation all over Europe but I'm happy to be corrected if you know differently?

Ludicrous sweeping generalisation then! Having worked and travelled most places in Europe the dream you talk of is mostly confined to Northern Europe and or the educated.

[ian in lancs]

An interesting slant on the financial situation - France and Germany lend the money ensure its spent on French and German products and demand domestic expenditure cuts. Hmm, another reason to hate Merkel!


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greec...

[gothatway]

How can you have currency union before you have fiscal union ? How can you have fiscal union before you have economic union ? How can you have economic union before you have political union ?

It was always bound to end in tears when the eurocrats started at the wrong end of the process.

[aw51 121565]

superkartracer said:

KemP said:

Evoluzione said:

It is a very sad sight to see, someone came up with a figure (few quid) last week that if everyone in GB donated it would pull them out of the st.

And what happens when they piss it all away next week and need more? They have over spent every thing they borrowed and now cannot pay it the interest on the loan let alone the loan its self.

Sounds like the UK in a few years, we still borrow billions a week.

Well yeah, but the UK is one of the G7 .

Potentially, you're right - the only difference is that the UK's currency is Pounds Sterling and not Euros (we'd potentially already be in serious st if this wasn't the case - "the PIGSUK", anyone? ).

Another poster alluded to EU member countries' disparate economies. I would add to that comment that "one size does NOT fit all" - whether it be a common currency or standardised NOx sampling against the same standards or, well, almost anything else the EU dictates or almost any EU policy...

[Gargamel]

What is it about the British that enabled us to resist the Euro. It was quite simple really, we refused to vote for any politicians that proposed it. Heck even John Major won an election on the stength of promising to keep the pound.

The European countries that voted in politicians who signed up the madness of the Euro allowed themselves to be railroaded into this position.

The Euro as a currency union was always going to fail as a construct, The EZ countries have not found a correct mechanism to harmonise their economic cycle. Heck even Germany and France are currently in breach of the terms of the fiscal pact.

I have long argued that the impact in people's lives is a silent tragedy, when middle class women in Greece are turning to prostitution as in order to try to stay solvent then you can be certain the economic policies have failed totally.

[Mr GrimNasty]

Every Greek person that ever fiddled their taxes or 'worked' for the state is to blame. Doesn't leave many innocents!

[xjsdriver]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Every Greek person that ever fiddled their taxes or 'worked' for the state is to blame. Doesn't leave many innocents!

....and if we go down the same road as them, I.E. fk Amazon, if they won't pay - I'm not paying either type of mentality - how long will it be before our own country goes the same way as Greece?

[johnfm]

ian in lancs said:

An interesting slant on the financial situation - France and Germany lend the money ensure its spent on French and German products and demand domestic expenditure cuts. Hmm, another reason to hate Merkel!


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greec...

How did they "ensure it was spent on German and French products"?

Seems that the Greek bought stuff from French and German companies. Can't see how Merkel forced the Greeks to do these deals.

[KemP]

ian in lancs said:

An interesting slant on the financial situation - France and Germany lend the money ensure its spent on French and German products and demand domestic expenditure cuts. Hmm, another reason to hate Merkel!


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greec...

If you ignore the 40% the purchased from the US. Outside of the US who are you going to buy your arms from?

And the most important part of that article "Speculation is rife that international aid was dependent on Greece following through on agreements to buy military hardware from Germany and France"

[daytona365]

Bet he was singing 'My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends' !!

[Mermaid]

Sad


What is more said is there were not more stories like this day in day out of waste, corruption, negligence going on in Greece over the last 15 years or so

[ATG]

gothatway said:

How can you have currency union before you have fiscal union ? How can you have fiscal union before you have economic union ? How can you have economic union before you have political union ?

It was always bound to end in tears when the eurocrats started at the wrong end of the process.

how can you have a monetary union without a fiscal union. Easy. It's called fiscal discipline. That's all you have to do. There was this thing called the Stability Pact that set out the fiscal rules countries that joined the Euro were supposed to adhere to. It was largely draughted by the Bundesbank, widely regarded as the most successful central bank on the planet. The French insisted it be watered down by introducing a bunch of caveats and excuses, and lo we had the Stability and Growth Pact, and no credible way of holding anyone to account for breaking its rules. Fiscal indiscipline in a monetary union with no fiscal transfers is going to be a car crash. Governments were too weak to enforce it, the public too badly informed (thick) to insist on it. Guess what? Car crash.

Edited by ATG on Saturday 4th July 23:17

[dandarez]

Luke Warm said:

greygoose said:

I can't really see that this man has lived the dream.

Relatively speaking. Compared to his parents' and grandchildren's generations, he's lived the dream. Moved out young, got a job easily, travelled the globe, owns a house, retired at 53(!), has a generous pension (by the standards of 50 years ago and 50 years hence), house probably worth 10 times what he paid for it 30 years ago...

Those days are over. It's the young Greeks I feel sorry for as they have a lifetime of misery ahead of them. He's been lucky.

Lived the dream? FFS! Read it all. He doubts he'll be able to vote tomorrow, unless perhaps his 'children' give him a lift in 'their' car the 80km to the nearest polling station.

He was born in 38, so lived as a child through the war. A war we may well have lost had it not been for the brave Greeks who fought the Italians and Germans with a might only Greeks knew. Some historians said that the Battle of Greece was decisive in determining the future course of the Second World War.

Even Churchill paid them a glowing tribute:'Until now we would say that the Greeks fight like heroes. From now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks.'

Edit to add re the young greeks. It's mostly the 'young' who will be voting 'No'. At least they have woken up.

Edited by dandarez on Sunday 5th July 00:04

Edited by dandarez on Sunday 5th July 00:05