This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

[Murph7355]

Cheese Mechanic said:

Yup. Low tax, nimble economy. Everything that fks up lefty big tax , big state posturing.

Won't pan out like that though I suspect.

Reliant totally on tourism, tax evasion will continue to be rife, (a good proportion of) the people of Greece will still expect a free ride - their governments have been woeful. But they've been pandering to the public that voted them in.

There is a big, big lesson for us all in all of this...

On an individual basis it's tragic. But collectively the people of Greece caused this problem.

[Beati Dogu]

vournikas said:

RobinBanks said:

barryrs said:

The construction of the Rio–Antirio bridge sums up the Greek situation quite well in my mind.

A grand vanity project that cost 630,000,000 euros with a projected crossing rate of just 11,000 vehicle's.

So only 5,700 euros per vehicle to date or 477 euros per crossing over its 120 year life cycle.

Good job they are going to cover this with a 20 euro charge per car eh!!!

ETA

Course you can guess which two euro nations benefited most from the construction.

Is France and Germany the correct answer? I have no idea who the contractors were.

Main contractor was Vinci Construction

Which is French.

[vournikas]

Beati Dogu said:

vournikas said:

RobinBanks said:

barryrs said:

The construction of the Rio–Antirio bridge sums up the Greek situation quite well in my mind.

A grand vanity project that cost 630,000,000 euros with a projected crossing rate of just 11,000 vehicle's.

So only 5,700 euros per vehicle to date or 477 euros per crossing over its 120 year life cycle.

Good job they are going to cover this with a 20 euro charge per car eh!!!

ETA

Course you can guess which two euro nations benefited most from the construction.

Is France and Germany the correct answer? I have no idea who the contractors were.

Main contractor was Vinci Construction

Which is French.

Indeed.

We drove over that bridge back in 2012 on our way from Patras airport to Lefkada, and the daft thing was that there were (are??) car ferries still operating to cross the channel in question.

[Beati Dogu]

Well yeah. Can't lose any none-jobs.

[Stevanos]

This passage of text is enough for me to decide,,,,,


The eurozone has given Greece a sum of money which is beyond precedent - €32.000 for every Greek man, woman and child. Greece obtained that money through fraud and false pretences. Now that it has been spent (or wasted) the demand is that more should follow so that a nation which has gone bankrupt six times in 180 years can continue living beyond its means! And since when did a debtor get to vote on whether a creditor should be repaid? We should organise a referendum in the rest of Europe with the question: "Should we give yet more money on unsecured terms to Greece?" I would anticipate 90% would vote NO

[dudleybloke]

They could pawn their valuables like other financially reckless people have to do.

Edited by dudleybloke on Tuesday 7th July 23:42

[Asterix]

It's madness! They've lost their marbles...

[Roy Lime]

Asterix said:

It's madness! They've lost their marbles...

[Guybrush]

NoNeed said:

I suspect that the rest of Europe is not bothered by Greece leaving, they are worried that Greece leaves and becomes a success story.

I think this is the crux of it; those living it up on the EU gravy train are terrified that if Greece leaves and convert to their old currency, they will do very well (after some initial pain).

[Pan Pan Pan]

Murph7355 said:

Cheese Mechanic said:

Yup. Low tax, nimble economy. Everything that fks up lefty big tax , big state posturing.

Won't pan out like that though I suspect.

Reliant totally on tourism, tax evasion will continue to be rife, (a good proportion of) the people of Greece will still expect a free ride - their governments have been woeful. But they've been pandering to the public that voted them in.

There is a big, big lesson for us all in all of this...

On an individual basis it's tragic. But collectively the people of Greece caused this problem.

I believe you are both right. There seem to be some here who are attributing the dire position that Greece is in now to its membership of the EU / Eurozone, when the truth of the matter, is that it has been a corrupt, non productive, backward, dishonest, basket case of an economy for many, many years before the EU/Eurozone even existed. And no, it is not just down to various administrations over the years but, threaded throughout the population (but to be fair to some, they just do what everyone around them was / is doing, so to `them' it is `normal business')
So yes, collectively the people of Greece caused this problem, and also yes, they could turn themselves into a low tax, nimble (productive) economy.....Only their huge track record shows the world, that in truth they probably will not.

This matter has also shown the EU to be an incompetent, unfair dishonest organisation, whose overarching ideals it seems, must always come `before' that of the people in it.
What can one say of an organisation which in the one hand, is happy to throw (generally other peoples) money in huge quantities at a problem country, so as to keep `its' aims on course, but which has been completely intractable towards another member state (which happens to be its second largest contributor of funds INTO its coffers, and which buys more goods from the EU than it sells into it) which has had the temerity to ask for some changes in the way it is run (which would ultimately benefit all member state)
All member states of the EU should be treated equally, but If the people of the UK begin to understand the biased / different the way the membership of the UK has been treated (starting with the onerous conditions imposed on our membership by DE Gaulle, because he did not want us in there right from the start) I would start having serious worries about the UK voting to stay in, come the referendum.
For me the main issue will be whether or not we will be given the truth from all sides, to enable the UK to make an informed decision on staying or leaving. On current form, I would say probably not.

[RYH64E]

Guybrush said:

NoNeed said:

I suspect that the rest of Europe is not bothered by Greece leaving, they are worried that Greece leaves and becomes a success story.

I think this is the crux of it; those living it up on the EU gravy train are terrified that if Greece leaves and convert to their old currency, they will do very well (after some initial pain).

Greece didn't do very well the last time they used the Drachma, they haven't done very well with the euro, and there's absolutely no reason to think they'll do very well simply by reverting to the Drachma. They badly need to reform their economy, they don't need someone like Tsipras in charge they need a modern day Thatcher.

[turbobloke]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Murph7355 said:

Cheese Mechanic said:

Yup. Low tax, nimble economy. Everything that fks up lefty big tax , big state posturing.

Won't pan out like that though I suspect.

Reliant totally on tourism, tax evasion will continue to be rife, (a good proportion of) the people of Greece will still expect a free ride - their governments have been woeful. But they've been pandering to the public that voted them in.

There is a big, big lesson for us all in all of this...

On an individual basis it's tragic. But collectively the people of Greece caused this problem.

I believe you are both right. There seem to be some here who are attributing the dire position that Greece is in now to its membership of the EU / Eurozone, when the truth of the matter, is that it has been a corrupt, non productive, backward, dishonest, basket case of an economy for many, many years before the EU/Eurozone even existed...

From my reading of posts in this and other threads, PH comments in general do acknowledge the contribution of Greece itself, it's difficult to miss the widespread tax evasion and other domestic problems, but go on to indicate that the manner in which the situation has been 'managed' outside Greece has more to do with protecting The Project and interests in other EZ countries. The protracted death throes of a walking economic corpse have gone on for longer than necessary to allow others to work on protection from contagion, and the twitching will continue for as long as The Project wants Greece inside the tent for its own ends.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Just imagine how well `we' would be doing, if `we' had been GIVEN 300 billion Euros from the EU to help improve `our' economy, instead of having to pay billions INTO EU coffers (to help support a faceless non accountable EU leadership, and of course certain dishonest basket case non productive economies elsewhere)????
The EU fair and Just?? Don't make me laugh.

[Pan Pan Pan]

turbobloke said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Murph7355 said:

Cheese Mechanic said:

Yup. Low tax, nimble economy. Everything that fks up lefty big tax , big state posturing.

Won't pan out like that though I suspect.

Reliant totally on tourism, tax evasion will continue to be rife, (a good proportion of) the people of Greece will still expect a free ride - their governments have been woeful. But they've been pandering to the public that voted them in.

There is a big, big lesson for us all in all of this...

On an individual basis it's tragic. But collectively the people of Greece caused this problem.

I believe you are both right. There seem to be some here who are attributing the dire position that Greece is in now to its membership of the EU / Eurozone, when the truth of the matter, is that it has been a corrupt, non productive, backward, dishonest, basket case of an economy for many, many years before the EU/Eurozone even existed...

From my reading of posts in this and other threads, PH comments in general do acknowledge the contribution of Greece itself, it's difficult to miss the widespread tax evasion and other domestic problems, but go on to indicate that the manner in which the situation has been 'managed' outside Greece has more to do with protecting The Project and interests in other EZ countries. The protracted death throes of a walking economic corpse have gone on for longer than necessary to allow others to work on protection from contagion, and the twitching will continue for as long as The Project wants Greece inside the tent for its own ends.

Yup. If Greece had been an ailing animal, the humane thing would have been put it out of its misery years ago, but even though Greece died as a sound economy years ago (if indeed it was ever sound) the EU just want to put an expensive hand up it backside, to create a glove puppet illusion, that it (and of course the grand EU dream) is still alive, healthy, and firing on all cylinders)

[Moonhawk]

Ean218 said:

Agreed. On R4 Today this morning there was some Greek chap bemoaning his lot. His pension had been cut from 2,500 euros per month to 1200. He didn't think it fair that he had worked hard for 35 years and they now did this to him.

He was aged 56.

I am 55 and have just had my NI contribution statement and it shows I have paid 39 years of NI. I cannot retire for another 10 years and all the government are promising me is £7500 pa.

So he's already worked less than me, retired 10 years earlier than me and already gets more pension than me. How on earth is that economically sane?

Is that state pension or a company one? Sounds crazy if it was state pension - 2500 euro per month is more than the average wage in this country - and in real terms is worth much more given that the cost of living in Greece is about 35% lower than the UK.

[Digga]

Guybrush said:

NoNeed said:

I suspect that the rest of Europe is not bothered by Greece leaving, they are worried that Greece leaves and becomes a success story.

I think this is the crux of it; those living it up on the EU gravy train are terrified that if Greece leaves and convert to their old currency, they will do very well (after some initial pain).

I don't even think the Eurocrat worry is that they will necessarily do very well, but rather they just survive and carry on, largely as they did pre-Euro. That alone might be sufficient encouragement for other PIIGS to follow and of course the really, really big fear for Eurocrats is a diminution of empire and power and, ultimately, the loss of their non-jobs.

These EU MPs love to strut their stuff on the international political scene and would have no means or access to such status were the EU project to end. The more tax-payers they can rope into their project, the more gravy is slopped into the trough for them to fill their greedy little faces with.

[jimmybobby]

So. We're all agreed Greece created its own problem. Good!

The issue here then is how to resolve the Greece situation.

Good imaginary money after bad?

Cut them loose?

As to those saying the last thing Greece needs is Tsipras I would argue they are very wrong. The problem for Greece up to now is it has had massively weak and corrupt leadership who were willing to do whatever it took to get into the Eurozone to patch up their debt problems.

Tsipras has been rock solid in his line since taking office. He said he would end austerity by the EU if voted in and he has. He said he would give Greece the option to choose their own path forward. He has. Not many politicians would do that.

He wants to remain a part of the Euro project and has repeatedly said so HOWEVER he refuses to see his people suffer austerity.

We need to be realistic. Brussels/the EU is massively corrupt in and of itself so have no right to be on their high horse to Greece or anyone for that matter.
Greece has major corruption issues and needs to sort itself out no one is arguing that however as I have said before my understanding is the EU have been doing the usual smoke and mirrors thing where they have loaned Greece 200 billion Euro but set such harsh and stupid terms that Greece have had to in effect give back all bar about £25 billion as interest and debt repayment.


The present situation has seen Greece's economy stagnate and collapse under the debt burden and the rules set out by the EU as part of the loan deal. It has seen businesses going to the wall and unemployment rocket all because Greece have not been given extended terms of repayment or the ability to introduce meaningful change that would allow them to close down on corrupt practices without causing absolute market carnage.

Tsipras it seems wants to change the terms so that Greece is able to repay their debt over a longer term and does not want the EU giving him lots of very strict economic reform policies in turn for the money thereby lowering the debt burden and giving Greece breathing room to try using the money given to get the country moving towards growth.

He does seem to me to be very capable of playing the EU at their own game and also smart enough to actually make sensible change in Greece but for that to happen Greece has to leave the EU or the EU has to accept a more sensible and helpful approach to Greece instead of behaving like dictators.

[Stevanos]

jimmybobby said:

Tsipras has been rock solid in his line since taking office. He said he would end austerity by the EU if voted in and he has. .

Not sure how he has ended austerity? he has bankrupted them and set them back 50 years!

He also comes across as an amatuer with no real clue.

[IainT]

jimmybobby said:

HOWEVER he refuses to see his people suffer austerity.

It's a great win for democracy, great to see a politician following the will of his people.

Unfortunately the alternative to austerity is going to be abject poverty.

They can choose austerity or not but they will have to accept that the choice isn't "austerity or great wealth".

[Moonhawk]

jimmybobby said:

Tsipras has been rock solid in his line since taking office. He said he would end austerity by the EU if voted in and he has.

So he made a firm commitment to increase budget deficit and to spend more than they take?

......and we are supposed to take this guy seriously?

Just where is Greece supposed to get the money from to do this? Would you lend somebody money to somebody who told you they had no intention of paying it back?

Edited by Moonhawk on Wednesday 8th July 10:56