This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)
Discussion
While I agree that the EU are just as corrupt, I disagree that non-interference, re-negotiating the terms and letting them get on with it is the answer. Like a naughty child, the Greeks have proven time and time again that they are unable or unwilling to behave themselves so an adult has to step in and enforce some discipline. Unfortunately for them the adults in this case (the EU) are abusive parents!
IainT said:
jimmybobby said:
HOWEVER he refuses to see his people suffer austerity.
It's a great win for democracy, great to see a politician following the will of his people.Unfortunately the alternative to austerity is going to be abject poverty.
They can choose austerity or not but they will have to accept that the choice isn't "austerity or great wealth".
IainT said:
jimmybobby said:
HOWEVER he refuses to see his people suffer austerity.
It's a great win for democracy, great to see a politician following the will of his people.Unfortunately the alternative to austerity is going to be abject poverty.
They can choose austerity or not but they will have to accept that the choice isn't "austerity or great wealth".
Been watching the debate in the European Parliament. There is real anger there. Anger that Greece keeps saying it has offered new proposals when it has not. Anger that Greece has made no commitments to real reform. Anger that Tspiras seems to think that the No vote somehow gives him a mandate to avoid doing anything meaningful. And all the while he is sitting there smirking.
Jimmybobby you are mistaken if you think Tspiras has prevented the Greeks suffering austerity. Unless he comes up with something workable, and quickly, he will have sealed the fate of millions of the poorest in Greece for several years to come. Indeed, unless he can take the heat out of the debate you can expect not only a Grexit from the Euro, but real pressure from some quarters to expel Greece from Europe - after all, who wants to have to pay for what will be a largely self inflicted humanitarian disaster!
Saying that you want to stay in everything and then doing nothing concrete to facilitate that happening is like saying you want to wine the FA cup final and then fielding a team comprised entirely of part time goal keepers
andymadmak said:
steveT350C said:
Farage yesterday https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=94UcyJnRcGU
thats today!
Bloody good speech!
Guvernator said:
Like a naughty child, the Greeks have proven time and time again that they are unable or unwilling to behave themselves
I agree with you that this was the case with all the previous governments for the last 40-50 years...but I also believe that Tsipras & Syriza want to implement that 'seed' change within the population & Greece. If given the chance, of course...I feel desperately sad for my people...and I wish the previous leaders of the last governments (PASOK & New Democracy) a slow, painful, miserable demise...
andymadmak said:
IainT said:
jimmybobby said:
HOWEVER he refuses to see his people suffer austerity.
It's a great win for democracy, great to see a politician following the will of his people.Unfortunately the alternative to austerity is going to be abject poverty.
They can choose austerity or not but they will have to accept that the choice isn't "austerity or great wealth".
Been watching the debate in the European Parliament. There is real anger there. Anger that Greece keeps saying it has offered new proposals when it has not. Anger that Greece has made no commitments to real reform. Anger that Tspiras seems to think that the No vote somehow gives him a mandate to avoid doing anything meaningful. And all the while he is sitting there smirking.
Jimmybobby you are mistaken if you think Tspiras has prevented the Greeks suffering austerity. Unless he comes up with something workable, and quickly, he will have sealed the fate of millions of the poorest in Greece for several years to come. Indeed, unless he can take the heat out of the debate you can expect not only a Grexit from the Euro, but real pressure from some quarters to expel Greece from Europe - after all, who wants to have to pay for what will be a largely self inflicted humanitarian disaster!
Saying that you want to stay in everything and then doing nothing concrete to facilitate that happening is like saying you want to wine the FA cup final and then fielding a team comprised entirely of part time goal keepers
Tsipras was elected to lead and he is doing just that. He is taking the fight to the EU. As said my understanding is not that Greece have asked for the debt to be written off nor have they asked not to be given terms. What they are demanding is more favourable terms to make the debt easier to restructure and repay over a longer term (much) so that rather than using the loans provided to pay off previous loans they can use the loans to sort out their economy.
Personally I think it would be better if Greece left the EUro and possibly even the EU for Greece and everyone else. They could do an Iceland and make a fairly swift recovery by simply declaring bankruptcy and start printing their own money as they would have relatively clear books then.
The other side would be that it "May" give the Brussels elite pause to think on how to treat the rest of the EU moving forward whether this would result in good (unlikely) or bad is the question. Would Brussels stop running roughshod over entire nations and ignoring the people or would they start to listen and show humility?
kapiteinlangzaam said:
The main thing is, no matter what Greece eventually choose to do, is that they HAVE to reform, and massively so.
Now, eventually, surely the electorate must see that...? You cant run a country when 89% of income tax goes unpaid. With an ageing population you cant expect the whole country to retire at 55 on a final-salary pension etc etc.
The whole Greek way of life HAS to change, but I have a sneaky feeling it wont.
They should have been made to reform before being allowed to join the Euro, people saying Greece created the problem are in one way correct but how that problem has grown and got out of control is purely down to the European union.Now, eventually, surely the electorate must see that...? You cant run a country when 89% of income tax goes unpaid. With an ageing population you cant expect the whole country to retire at 55 on a final-salary pension etc etc.
The whole Greek way of life HAS to change, but I have a sneaky feeling it wont.
Actually as an aside as mentioned by others on here and touched on in Farages speech much of the money given to Greece went to France and German based companies based on the terms of the debts arrangements and due to the way the EU is actually set up to favour them. It did not go to helping Greece get back on its feet it went to lining the pockets of a few very elite and exceptionally wealthy people outside of Greece.
Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
andymadmak said:
Jimmybobby you are mistaken if you think Tspiras has prevented the Greeks suffering austerity.
Yep this - a reduction in the budget deficit is inevitable. Just a question of whether they implement measures willingly or go banckrupt. You can't spend money you don't have.
Quite why 'stopping austerity' is seen as a good thing is beyond me.
jimmybobby said:
Actually as an aside as mentioned by others on here and touched on in Farages speech much of the money given to Greece went to France and German based companies based on the terms of the debts arrangements and due to the way the EU is actually set up to favour them. It did not go to helping Greece get back on its feet it went to lining the pockets of a few very elite and exceptionally wealthy people outside of Greece.
Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
Seems a very simplistic approach by saying any bail out cash should just have went to Greek companies.. Companies run by the Greek elite who are potentially more corrupt than their euro equivalents? Were there Greek companies qualified for the work that had to be done, and the best / most efficient to do it? How do you know that most of the money didn't go to Greek workers on a local level?Can you therefore blame Greece for wanting better terms and arrangements? So for example lend them the money and allow them to spend it within Greece with companies within Greece creating jobs and putting the money into Greece's economy rather than into foreign pockets.
Maybe the loans were set up for French / German companies, precisely because they actually use a non-corrupt accounting structure, and it could be seen exactly where it was going..
You just sound like an A-typical anti-austerity bloke who complains all money go to the rich / bankers / wealthy etc.
jimmybobby said:
So. We're all agreed Greece created its own problem. Good!
The issue here then is how to resolve the Greece situation.
Good imaginary money after bad?
Cut them loose?
As to those saying the last thing Greece needs is Tsipras I would argue they are very wrong. The problem for Greece up to now is it has had massively weak and corrupt leadership who were willing to do whatever it took to get into the Eurozone to patch up their debt problems.
Tsipras has been rock solid in his line since taking office. He said he would end austerity by the EU if voted in and he has. He said he would give Greece the option to choose their own path forward. He has. Not many politicians would do that.
He wants to remain a part of the Euro project and has repeatedly said so HOWEVER he refuses to see his people suffer austerity.
We need to be realistic. Brussels/the EU is massively corrupt in and of itself so have no right to be on their high horse to Greece or anyone for that matter.
Greece has major corruption issues and needs to sort itself out no one is arguing that however as I have said before my understanding is the EU have been doing the usual smoke and mirrors thing where they have loaned Greece 200 billion Euro but set such harsh and stupid terms that Greece have had to in effect give back all bar about £25 billion as interest and debt repayment.
The present situation has seen Greece's economy stagnate and collapse under the debt burden and the rules set out by the EU as part of the loan deal. It has seen businesses going to the wall and unemployment rocket all because Greece have not been given extended terms of repayment or the ability to introduce meaningful change that would allow them to close down on corrupt practices without causing absolute market carnage.
Tsipras it seems wants to change the terms so that Greece is able to repay their debt over a longer term and does not want the EU giving him lots of very strict economic reform policies in turn for the money thereby lowering the debt burden and giving Greece breathing room to try using the money given to get the country moving towards growth.
He does seem to me to be very capable of playing the EU at their own game and also smart enough to actually make sensible change in Greece but for that to happen Greece has to leave the EU or the EU has to accept a more sensible and helpful approach to Greece instead of behaving like dictators.
Greece`s economy was a dead and stinking corpse, long before it joined the EU. The Greek administration knew that, the EU leaders knew it too, but the great EU dream was too big to allow a minor detail like that get in its way. Now it appears they must both pay for the folly of Greece wanting to join when it should never have done so, and the EU letting them.The issue here then is how to resolve the Greece situation.
Good imaginary money after bad?
Cut them loose?
As to those saying the last thing Greece needs is Tsipras I would argue they are very wrong. The problem for Greece up to now is it has had massively weak and corrupt leadership who were willing to do whatever it took to get into the Eurozone to patch up their debt problems.
Tsipras has been rock solid in his line since taking office. He said he would end austerity by the EU if voted in and he has. He said he would give Greece the option to choose their own path forward. He has. Not many politicians would do that.
He wants to remain a part of the Euro project and has repeatedly said so HOWEVER he refuses to see his people suffer austerity.
We need to be realistic. Brussels/the EU is massively corrupt in and of itself so have no right to be on their high horse to Greece or anyone for that matter.
Greece has major corruption issues and needs to sort itself out no one is arguing that however as I have said before my understanding is the EU have been doing the usual smoke and mirrors thing where they have loaned Greece 200 billion Euro but set such harsh and stupid terms that Greece have had to in effect give back all bar about £25 billion as interest and debt repayment.
The present situation has seen Greece's economy stagnate and collapse under the debt burden and the rules set out by the EU as part of the loan deal. It has seen businesses going to the wall and unemployment rocket all because Greece have not been given extended terms of repayment or the ability to introduce meaningful change that would allow them to close down on corrupt practices without causing absolute market carnage.
Tsipras it seems wants to change the terms so that Greece is able to repay their debt over a longer term and does not want the EU giving him lots of very strict economic reform policies in turn for the money thereby lowering the debt burden and giving Greece breathing room to try using the money given to get the country moving towards growth.
He does seem to me to be very capable of playing the EU at their own game and also smart enough to actually make sensible change in Greece but for that to happen Greece has to leave the EU or the EU has to accept a more sensible and helpful approach to Greece instead of behaving like dictators.
The only viable option for both is to part company.
Axionknight said:
Yeah! But Tsipras did not `look' all that impressed with what was being said, Perhaps he is just a blinding poker player??? To be fair there seemed to be quite a few others there who did not look all that impressed by Nigel Farages words, but as the saying goes, `sometimes the truth really hurts'
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