This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

[Pan Pan Pan]

iambeowulf said:

PlankWithANailIn said:

I assume this 2 billion will come out of your own personal fortune and not my pension?

It's the banks money not UK tax payers.

Osborne said so it must be true.
Greece debt crisis: No UK cash for bailout, Osborne says http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33517457

Since the UK is the second largest net contributor into the EU`s coffers, where do people actually believe the cash the EU uses, and will use to bail out Greece (yet again) will come from?
Do people think the EU will ring fence the billions the UK pays into EU coffers, so that it is not used for matters such as this?
Once the UE has got its hands on the cash, they deem it theirs, to do with, what they wish, and like benefits claimants, once they have got their hands on the cash, they don't give a brass f*ck about where it came from or who paid it in.
As posted elsewhere the interesting bit will be seeing what the EU does regarding the UK and its up coming referendum.
If the EU is willing to bend over backwards, and spend billions of Euros and a long time, keeping a basket case, non reforming, non productive, non contributing economy like Greece in the `club' what will they deem fit, to keep its second largest net contributor of funds INTO their coffers, (and one of its largest markets) from voting `no' in the UK`s up coming EU membership referendum?

[Pan Pan Pan]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Given the way this has turned out, if the Greeks don't boot out Tsipras and Syriza immediately, they really will appear to be out of touch with reality.
They voted for him in the frankly stupid belief / lie, that somehow he and his party would get Greece out of paying back the huge dept the country had built up, and all without changing any of the disastrous practices which has brought them to where they are now.
The Greeks will need a new government fast, but the track record of all their governments to date, has been disastrous. So where do they find a government that will at least start to lead them out of this dire position. That will be just one of the huge tasks facing Greece now.

[Guvernator]

Did anyone really see any other outcome then a deal being struck? While it's nice to say they should have left or defaulted, realistically it was NEVER going to be allowed to happen, too many ego's at stake for that.

[jimmybobby]

Guvernator said:

Did anyone really see any other outcome then a deal being struck? While it's nice to say they should have left or defaulted, realistically it was NEVER going to be allowed to happen, too many ego's at stake for that.

Well I predicted they would never be allowed to leave from the start but just didnt expect this outcome.

[Guvernator]

jimmybobby said:

Well I predicted they would never be allowed to leave from the start but just didnt expect this outcome.

I'm not surprised that Tsipras folded. I expect there are a lot more back-room goings on to this then we know about. It's easy to say what he should have done but I imagine once you are sat in that room facing some very powerful Eurocrats, a healthy dose of carrot and stick is involved. Agree and we give you a nice cushy Euro MP job, don't and we make things very difficult for you and your family.

[Derek Smith]

Guvernator said:

Did anyone really see any other outcome then a deal being struck? While it's nice to say they should have left or defaulted, realistically it was NEVER going to be allowed to happen, too many ego's at stake for that.

I thought there would be a fudge, indeed this might just be one, but I did not expect the Greek side to fold so quickly.

[TTmonkey]

Guam said:

He may be smarter than we are giving him credit for, get the cash then default and go back to the drachma, I would not put that past them at this stage

This. Its the only thing that makes sense. And the Euro-crats know it.

[Derek Smith]

Guam said:

Derek Smith said:

I thought there would be a fudge, indeed this might just be one, but I did not expect the Greek side to fold so quickly.

He may be smarter than we are giving him credit for, get the cash then default and go back to the drachma, I would not put that past them at this stage

It's something I've thought about. Cut and run. Classy. In essence, it's a method that has no real drawbacks. The country will be in no worse a state than it is now, and there will be a little more money. Defaulting means little it seems, looking at Iceland.

I'd bet against it but I've been wrong before.

[Ridgemont]

Guvernator said:

jimmybobby said:

Well I predicted they would never be allowed to leave from the start but just didnt expect this outcome.

I'm not surprised that Tsipras folded. I expect there are a lot more back-room goings on to this then we know about. It's easy to say what he should have done but I imagine once you are sat in that room facing some very powerful Eurocrats, a healthy dose of carrot and stick is involved. Agree and we give you a nice cushy Euro MP job, don't and we make things very difficult for you and your family.

I would imagine the threat was to force Greece out of the EU; it's implicit in the event of an exit from the EZ but I would imagine it was used as leverage in getting Tsipras to buckle. Schauble's suggestions re temporary 5 year abeyance from the Euro went strangely quiet over last night.

[jimmybobby]

TTmonkey said:

Guam said:

He may be smarter than we are giving him credit for, get the cash then default and go back to the drachma, I would not put that past them at this stage

This. Its the only thing that makes sense. And the Euro-crats know it.

Hmm oddly the one angle I hadnt thought of but yes sort of makes sense. The question is could he stay in office long enough to make it work?

[V8 Fettler]

There is a yawning gulf between the vast majority of the Greek population and the Greek politicos. The Greek/EU politicos are clearly incompetent for arriving at the current situation.

[L555BAT]

If a Greece style situation were ever on the horizon in the UK (or wherever you live), what would you do as a smart PHer to prevent being as screwed as the average Greek is now?

Facing cash limits, no foreign transfers, massive inflation, confiscation of high value savings/pensions, and whatever else...

It seems so all-encompassing that you'd probably go down a fair bit with it unless you move pretty much all your money to a safe haven abroad. Perhaps you just need enough in a foreign account to pay for your plane ticket and to get you started in another country?

[Beati Dogu]

L555BAT said:

If a Greece style situation were ever on the horizon in the UK (or wherever you live), what would you do as a smart PHer to prevent being as screwed as the average Greek is now?

Facing cash limits, no foreign transfers, massive inflation, confiscation of high value savings/pensions, and whatever else...

It seems so all-encompassing that you'd probably go down a fair bit with it unless you move pretty much all your money to a safe haven abroad. Perhaps you just need enough in a foreign account to pay for your plane ticket and to get you started in another country?

You mean just like Britain in the 1970s? We'd vote Labour out.

[Murph7355]

L555BAT said:

If a Greece style situation were ever on the horizon in the UK (or wherever you live), what would you do as a smart PHer to prevent being as screwed as the average Greek is now?...

I would have taken my money out a few rounds ago while I still could.

[Foppo]

The Greeks are screwed their referendum ignored and their Government blackmailed.

Welcome to Europe of the future.Ein volk Ein Fuhrer.

[maffski]

It would appear that a way of restoring 'trust' in the Greeks has been found - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/g...

[Bluebarge]

Foppo said:

The Greeks are screwed their referendum ignored and their Government blackmailed.

Welcome to Europe of the future.Ein volk Ein Fuhrer.

Try going bankrupt yourself and something similar will happen. You can't expect other nations to bankroll Greece's profligacy for ever.

Sure, they need a debt write-off, but if you owe big money to people, and need to go back for more, they call the shots. It's like that for every country, company, person and always has been.

[Pan Pan Pan]

V8 Fettler said:

There is a yawning gulf between the vast majority of the Greek population and the Greek politicos. The Greek/EU politicos are clearly incompetent for arriving at the current situation.

Unfortunately the Greek people are just as culpable for voting in a government they believed would somehow not only magic away all the debt they had built up for decades (not just from the point they joined the EU) but also one they believed would allow them to just continue with their corrupt, backward, dishonest, basket case economic practices, which have got them to where they are now.
Whatever happens Greece has now has to undergo a severe bout of cold turkey, before they will reach a point where others will ever trust them again. Given their history I don't believe they are capable of doing it, but as posted before I would much prefer to be proven wrong.
How Tsipras can remain in office is beyond me, he and his party were voted in on the strength of an outright, bald faced lie. If the Greek people are still too dumb to realize this, and boot Tsipras out, then frankly like they say, they get the (disastrous) government they deserve.

[Guvernator]

You have to remember that in Greece as in many countries, the uneducated outweigh the educated by some margin. I don't really think a large percentage of the population actually fully understood what it was they were voting for both in the referendum or for their government.

In theory, a much higher percentage of the population of the UK is relatively clued up and yet we still get taken in by politicians lies so the Greeks don't stand a chance.

[AJS-]

Guvernator said:

You have to remember that in Greece as in many countries, the uneducated outweigh the educated by some margin. I don't really think a large percentage of the population actually fully understood what it was they were voting for both in the referendum or for their government.

In theory, a much higher percentage of the population of the UK is relatively clued up and yet we still get taken in by politicians lies so the Greeks don't stand a chance.

It would depend on how you define educated and clued up but I don't think Greece is suffering from a lack of education as such. They send a huge proportion of students abroad, and many study Masters degrees and PhDs. Look at the academic staff in most British universities and you will find Greeks represented. I remember talking to a regular policeman in a suburb of Athens who had a doctorate in sociology.

In fact I would think their habit of not really entering employment until their late 20s and sending their brightest young people abroad for years on end is probably a bigger problem than their lack of education.