This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)
Discussion
zygalski said:
AJS- said:
Agree with that.
It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Hang on a minute. The EU are in essence now trying to make Greece a more fiscally responsible country. How is that in any way a bad thing?It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Ok, they should obviously have forced root & branch banking reforms as a condition of entry before they allowed the Greeks to join the Euro, but come on.
Greece has been operating a disastrous, basket case, corrupt, backward, non productive, dishonest, shyster economy for decades, (long, long before the EU even existed) and this runs throughout the population from top to bottom, so it is not `just' the fault of the disastrous administrations they have elected over the last 180 years.
And of course especially in the case of the Tsipras/Syriza administration, who they voted in, on the strength of an outright lie. (but a lie those who voted them in `wanted' to believe, because it would get them out of paying their debts, and having to change from their corrupt basket case, non productive economic practices)
The EU knew, that Greece was a basket case, country which could not be trusted when it admitted them to the EU, so they carry a significant portion of the blame for this whole fiasco, but the major portion of the blame for Greece`s dire position lies squarely with Greeks.
All the EU have done is lend an untrustworthy, waster of a country, billions in the `hope' they would use it to change their (historical) disastrous practices, and become a modern, trustworthy, productive 21st century economy, But like all shysters, they just took the cash, with no intention of doing anything except carry on with their disastrous operating practises.
Other countries have had to do this, starting from a much poorer position than the Greeks, some achieving spectacular results, but I believe given their historical, blame others for all their ills, its not our fault, corrupt, backward, attitude, they will not be capable of changing and getting themselves out of the hole they have put themselves in.
The can has yet again been kicked down the road.
zygalski said:
AJS- said:
Agree with that.
It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Hang on a minute. The EU are in essence now trying to make Greece a more fiscally responsible country. How is that in any way a bad thing?It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Ok, they should obviously have forced root & branch banking reforms as a condition of entry before they allowed the Greeks to join the Euro, but come on.
it would be hard for the Greeks, we need to be there to help, but I do believe this is the only way.
The gift from the UK to help will not be ring fenced, it will appear on some accounts in the future,paragraph 962 subsection 24 miscellaneous expenses, it is just a statement to make the us feel better about giving money away and avoid any awkward questions about supporting the EZ. Basically we are doing as instructed by Brussels.
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am no fan of the EU, and most certainly not whilst in its current form, but I find it strange that so many attribute Greece`s current dire position to their membership of, and the actions of the EU.
Greece has been operating a disastrous, basket case, corrupt, backward, non productive, dishonest, shyster economy for decades, (long, long before the EU even existed) and this runs throughout the population from top to bottom, so it is not `just' the fault of the disastrous administrations they have elected over the last 180 years.
And of course especially in the case of the Tsipras/Syriza administration, who they voted in, on the strength of an outright lie. (but a lie those who voted them in `wanted' to believe, because it would get them out of paying their debts, and having to change from their corrupt basket case, non productive economic practices)
The EU knew, that Greece was a basket case, country which could not be trusted when it admitted them to the EU, so they carry a significant portion of the blame for this whole fiasco, but the major portion of the blame for Greece`s dire position lies squarely with Greeks.
All the EU have done is lend an untrustworthy, waster of a country, billions in the `hope' they would use it to change their (historical) disastrous practices, and become a modern, trustworthy, productive 21st century economy, But like all shysters, they just took the cash, with no intention of doing anything except carry on with their disastrous operating practises.
Other countries have had to do this, starting from a much poorer position than the Greeks, some achieving spectacular results, but I believe given their historical, blame others for all their ills, its not our fault, corrupt, backward, attitude, they will not be capable of changing and getting themselves out of the hole they have put themselves in.
The can has yet again been kicked down the road.
The father of a friend of my wife's was a civil servant, a PPS to the person in charge of the foreign and commonwealth office. He was well paid, worked hard, had to sleep in at Westminster during the Cuban missile crisis and was really intelligent, knowledgeable and well read. A fascinating bloke. Greece has been operating a disastrous, basket case, corrupt, backward, non productive, dishonest, shyster economy for decades, (long, long before the EU even existed) and this runs throughout the population from top to bottom, so it is not `just' the fault of the disastrous administrations they have elected over the last 180 years.
And of course especially in the case of the Tsipras/Syriza administration, who they voted in, on the strength of an outright lie. (but a lie those who voted them in `wanted' to believe, because it would get them out of paying their debts, and having to change from their corrupt basket case, non productive economic practices)
The EU knew, that Greece was a basket case, country which could not be trusted when it admitted them to the EU, so they carry a significant portion of the blame for this whole fiasco, but the major portion of the blame for Greece`s dire position lies squarely with Greeks.
All the EU have done is lend an untrustworthy, waster of a country, billions in the `hope' they would use it to change their (historical) disastrous practices, and become a modern, trustworthy, productive 21st century economy, But like all shysters, they just took the cash, with no intention of doing anything except carry on with their disastrous operating practises.
Other countries have had to do this, starting from a much poorer position than the Greeks, some achieving spectacular results, but I believe given their historical, blame others for all their ills, its not our fault, corrupt, backward, attitude, they will not be capable of changing and getting themselves out of the hole they have put themselves in.
The can has yet again been kicked down the road.
He retired. His wife was ill and her time was limited. They toured Europe. He pulled up with his caravan and Range Rover outside a Greek taverna, asked if there was a caravan site nearby and was told, as expected, to park the thing in the bloke's garden. This during the junta by the way.
The chap, whom I'd never seen in anything other than his normal brown suit, white shirt, brown tie with brown shoes and socks, then donned local attire and served in the restaurant as payment for the chap's generosity - he'd refused to accept any rent.
He did this for months each year for three years, the junta ending while he was out there.
I met him when he was back in the UK - didn't recognise him in his bright printed shirt outside his trousers, with light coloured slacks and sandals, albeit with his brown socks. He reckoned that the Greeks had got it cracked with their lifestyle.
The taverna had no TV, an old radio, but was full of customers. He became something of a feature - he spoke all west European languages and Greek fluently, being out there during the war.
Here was a chap, a couple in fact, who were, in the eyes of a youngster literally from the wrong side of the tracks - me from East Greenwich, him Blackheath with a view of the Thames, the London Bridge to Gravesend line dividing us in more ways than one, suddenly realising that they was an alternative lifestyle that was enjoyable, one that didn't require lots of money.
It might well be wrong to try and mould all countries into a common form. We want our differences to remain whilst still being a member of the EU.
Derek Smith said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am no fan of the EU, and most certainly not whilst in its current form, but I find it strange that so many attribute Greece`s current dire position to their membership of, and the actions of the EU.
Greece has been operating a disastrous, basket case, corrupt, backward, non productive, dishonest, shyster economy for decades, (long, long before the EU even existed) and this runs throughout the population from top to bottom, so it is not `just' the fault of the disastrous administrations they have elected over the last 180 years.
And of course especially in the case of the Tsipras/Syriza administration, who they voted in, on the strength of an outright lie. (but a lie those who voted them in `wanted' to believe, because it would get them out of paying their debts, and having to change from their corrupt basket case, non productive economic practices)
The EU knew, that Greece was a basket case, country which could not be trusted when it admitted them to the EU, so they carry a significant portion of the blame for this whole fiasco, but the major portion of the blame for Greece`s dire position lies squarely with Greeks.
All the EU have done is lend an untrustworthy, waster of a country, billions in the `hope' they would use it to change their (historical) disastrous practices, and become a modern, trustworthy, productive 21st century economy, But like all shysters, they just took the cash, with no intention of doing anything except carry on with their disastrous operating practises.
Other countries have had to do this, starting from a much poorer position than the Greeks, some achieving spectacular results, but I believe given their historical, blame others for all their ills, its not our fault, corrupt, backward, attitude, they will not be capable of changing and getting themselves out of the hole they have put themselves in.
The can has yet again been kicked down the road.
The father of a friend of my wife's was a civil servant, a PPS to the person in charge of the foreign and commonwealth office. He was well paid, worked hard, had to sleep in at Westminster during the Cuban missile crisis and was really intelligent, knowledgeable and well read. A fascinating bloke. Greece has been operating a disastrous, basket case, corrupt, backward, non productive, dishonest, shyster economy for decades, (long, long before the EU even existed) and this runs throughout the population from top to bottom, so it is not `just' the fault of the disastrous administrations they have elected over the last 180 years.
And of course especially in the case of the Tsipras/Syriza administration, who they voted in, on the strength of an outright lie. (but a lie those who voted them in `wanted' to believe, because it would get them out of paying their debts, and having to change from their corrupt basket case, non productive economic practices)
The EU knew, that Greece was a basket case, country which could not be trusted when it admitted them to the EU, so they carry a significant portion of the blame for this whole fiasco, but the major portion of the blame for Greece`s dire position lies squarely with Greeks.
All the EU have done is lend an untrustworthy, waster of a country, billions in the `hope' they would use it to change their (historical) disastrous practices, and become a modern, trustworthy, productive 21st century economy, But like all shysters, they just took the cash, with no intention of doing anything except carry on with their disastrous operating practises.
Other countries have had to do this, starting from a much poorer position than the Greeks, some achieving spectacular results, but I believe given their historical, blame others for all their ills, its not our fault, corrupt, backward, attitude, they will not be capable of changing and getting themselves out of the hole they have put themselves in.
The can has yet again been kicked down the road.
He retired. His wife was ill and her time was limited. They toured Europe. He pulled up with his caravan and Range Rover outside a Greek taverna, asked if there was a caravan site nearby and was told, as expected, to park the thing in the bloke's garden. This during the junta by the way.
The chap, whom I'd never seen in anything other than his normal brown suit, white shirt, brown tie with brown shoes and socks, then donned local attire and served in the restaurant as payment for the chap's generosity - he'd refused to accept any rent.
He did this for months each year for three years, the junta ending while he was out there.
I met him when he was back in the UK - didn't recognise him in his bright printed shirt outside his trousers, with light coloured slacks and sandals, albeit with his brown socks. He reckoned that the Greeks had got it cracked with their lifestyle.
The taverna had no TV, an old radio, but was full of customers. He became something of a feature - he spoke all west European languages and Greek fluently, being out there during the war.
Here was a chap, a couple in fact, who were, in the eyes of a youngster literally from the wrong side of the tracks - me from East Greenwich, him Blackheath with a view of the Thames, the London Bridge to Gravesend line dividing us in more ways than one, suddenly realising that they was an alternative lifestyle that was enjoyable, one that didn't require lots of money.
It might well be wrong to try and mould all countries into a common form. We want our differences to remain whilst still being a member of the EU.
My view is that given its history, Greece should never have been admitted into the EU / Eurozone in the first place, Both the EU were wrong in admitting Greece, and Greece was wrong for entering a club, that it knew full well it could not, and would be able to pay for, down right dishonesty.
hidetheelephants said:
There were loads of greek students in the engineering faculty when I was there; I was told it was a popular way of avoiding being drafted for military service, although this was 20 years ago so it may have changed since.
It was certainly still true 10 years ago.zygalski said:
Hang on a minute. The EU are in essence now trying to make Greece a more fiscally responsible country. How is that in any way a bad thing?
Ok, they should obviously have forced root & branch banking reforms as a condition of entry before they allowed the Greeks to join the Euro, but come on.
We were trying to "civilise" - according to our own values at the time - the people of Africa for much of the 19th century. When a central authority imposes its rule on a far-flung people it can still be called an empire.Ok, they should obviously have forced root & branch banking reforms as a condition of entry before they allowed the Greeks to join the Euro, but come on.
Anyway, the notion that they're trying to make Greece more fiscally responsible is a very generous view of it. They're attempting to recoup a bad debt that they bought off commercial banks. This either naïve or cynical sense of morality which equates this situation to lending a friend some cash until payday is ridiculous. That's not how it works. Debt defaults happen when you make bad loans.
Greece is at fault, but it's not the only one at fault. The EU should never have admitted them into the Euro. They did so for political reasons despite the predictions that this sort of thing would happen, and they are keeping them in at any cost for the same political reasons. Greece needs to issue its own currency, formally default or restructure their debts in a practical way and return its economy to growth.
The Greek economy has contracted by 25% over a 6-year slump. That's insane. Bigger than the Great Depression in the 1920s. No country can carry on like that.
Edited by AJS- on Friday 17th July 10:18
Pan Pan Pan said:
Nice anecdote , but not sure what it is meant to illustrate. Greece is like some of the benefits claimants we have here, who want `nice' lifestyle that they see others (who have worked to be able to afford it) enjoying, but they want to be `given' it, whilst paying nothing in return.
My view is that given its history, Greece should never have been admitted into the EU / Eurozone in the first place, Both the EU were wrong in admitting Greece, and Greece was wrong for entering a club, that it knew full well it could not, and would be able to pay for, down right dishonesty.
I meant to show that there are different ways of living. You suggest a 'nice' lifestyle is unobtainable without working hard for it, but the point is that they were happy enough when they just bumbled along. If they want to flop around all day, then let them.My view is that given its history, Greece should never have been admitted into the EU / Eurozone in the first place, Both the EU were wrong in admitting Greece, and Greece was wrong for entering a club, that it knew full well it could not, and would be able to pay for, down right dishonesty.
The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the καλή ζωή, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
Derek Smith said:
Efbe said:
but if Germany don't fund the backsliders, then their currency won't be so outrageously undervalued for them, so they won't make as much money.
If Germany bail out the poorer countries, they make it back with appreciation defying exports. If they don't bail them out then they save money in the short term, but lose some of the edge of the current currency value.
The money we give out in overseas aid is one of our best investments. In essence, it is a bribe: buy our stuff or else we pull the plug. It doesn't always work, but that's normally because other countries pay more in aid. Yet many people, especially on these forums, want to stop it. I feel certain that there are similar people in Germany and if it starts to look as if they are throwing good money after bad - despite evidence to the contrary - then there will be pressure to cut and run.If Germany bail out the poorer countries, they make it back with appreciation defying exports. If they don't bail them out then they save money in the short term, but lose some of the edge of the current currency value.
Derek Smith said:
I meant to show that there are different ways of living. You suggest a 'nice' lifestyle is unobtainable without working hard for it, but the point is that they were happy enough when they just bumbled along. If they want to flop around all day, then let them.
The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the ?a?? ???, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
Couldn't have written it better my self. Just because the UK population has bought fully into the Iphone, new car every other year, biggest Sky package, housing estate comfort doesn't mean it suits or is wanted by all. The consumer dream is for most a distant and frustrating dream.The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the ?a?? ???, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
I have been spending a month a year in Greece on holiday since 1996. I love the Greek people but would I trust them? Not with your money! I remember when Greece became part of the EU, the inflation was astounding. This was followed later that year by lots of Greeks buying German sports cars, Audi TTs BMW Z4's etc. A friend of mine who lived there at this time forecast what's happening now, he said "the Greeks don't realise they are going to have to pay for all this credit for the rest of their lives".
In the space of a year they went from farming families riding round on rotovators to sharp suits in Audi's.
PRTVR said:
zygalski said:
AJS- said:
Agree with that.
It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Hang on a minute. The EU are in essence now trying to make Greece a more fiscally responsible country. How is that in any way a bad thing?It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Ok, they should obviously have forced root & branch banking reforms as a condition of entry before they allowed the Greeks to join the Euro, but come on.
it would be hard for the Greeks, we need to be there to help, but I do believe this is the only way.
The gift from the UK to help will not be ring fenced, it will appear on some accounts in the future,paragraph 962 subsection 24 miscellaneous expenses, it is just a statement to make the us feel better about giving money away and avoid any awkward questions about supporting the EZ. Basically we are doing as instructed by Brussels.
The approach the EU has taken with regards to Greece is perfectly reasonable.
crossy67 said:
Couldn't have written it better my self. Just because the UK population has bought fully into the Iphone, new car every other year, biggest Sky package, housing estate comfort doesn't mean it suits or is wanted by all. The consumer dream is for most a distant and frustrating dream.
I have been spending a month a year in Greece on holiday since 1996. I love the Greek people but would I trust them? Not with your money! I remember when Greece became part of the EU, the inflation was astounding. This was followed later that year by lots of Greeks buying German sports cars, Audi TTs BMW Z4's etc. A friend of mine who lived there at this time forecast what's happening now, he said "the Greeks don't realise they are going to have to pay for all this credit for the rest of their lives".
In the space of a year they went from farming families riding round on rotovators to sharp suits in Audi's.
The problem is you can't stop "progress". I've been to a few countries where the previous agricultural laid back lifestyle is being replaced by a western one but they very much get the hard sell. TV's promote the technology laden western lifestyle to such an extent that it's almost impossible for Costas the farmer to not feel hard done by and aspire to live like the City folk because we are so good at selling aspiration. I have been spending a month a year in Greece on holiday since 1996. I love the Greek people but would I trust them? Not with your money! I remember when Greece became part of the EU, the inflation was astounding. This was followed later that year by lots of Greeks buying German sports cars, Audi TTs BMW Z4's etc. A friend of mine who lived there at this time forecast what's happening now, he said "the Greeks don't realise they are going to have to pay for all this credit for the rest of their lives".
In the space of a year they went from farming families riding round on rotovators to sharp suits in Audi's.
The thing they don't realise is that their former lifestyle was self sufficient and self sustaining, the western lifestyle isn't and costs huge amounts of money\credit to sustain. Sometimes I think they had it better before we sold them our "better lifestyle". Strange that many Westerners now aspire to retire to the countryside and live the simple life.
crossy67 said:
Derek Smith said:
I meant to show that there are different ways of living. You suggest a 'nice' lifestyle is unobtainable without working hard for it, but the point is that they were happy enough when they just bumbled along. If they want to flop around all day, then let them.
The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the ?a?? ???, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
Couldn't have written it better my self. Just because the UK population has bought fully into the Iphone, new car every other year, biggest Sky package, housing estate comfort doesn't mean it suits or is wanted by all. The consumer dream is for most a distant and frustrating dream.The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the ?a?? ???, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
I have been spending a month a year in Greece on holiday since 1996. I love the Greek people but would I trust them? Not with your money! I remember when Greece became part of the EU, the inflation was astounding. This was followed later that year by lots of Greeks buying German sports cars, Audi TTs BMW Z4's etc. A friend of mine who lived there at this time forecast what's happening now, he said "the Greeks don't realise they are going to have to pay for all this credit for the rest of their lives".
In the space of a year they went from farming families riding round on rotovators to sharp suits in Audi's.
It's Greece we're talking about, not Shangai La.
Some Greeks aspire to and some have great wealth, some people prefer a nice life by the beach without working too hard. Most I guess fall somewhere between.
It has been badly run for decades in much the same way that most of Europe has, especially in the south.
What has happened here is the text book example of why the Euro is a bad idea. A slump in Greece where the drachma should have devalued has been exacerbated by the lack of a drachma to devalue, and culminated in an unserviceable debt with no economic recovery in sight.
Some Greeks aspire to and some have great wealth, some people prefer a nice life by the beach without working too hard. Most I guess fall somewhere between.
It has been badly run for decades in much the same way that most of Europe has, especially in the south.
What has happened here is the text book example of why the Euro is a bad idea. A slump in Greece where the drachma should have devalued has been exacerbated by the lack of a drachma to devalue, and culminated in an unserviceable debt with no economic recovery in sight.
The EZ was doomed to fail unless there was both a fiscal and monetary policy to govern all.
It is difficult enough for a competent government to run a successful economy in one country let alone the 19 members of the EZ out of the total 28 members of the EU.
With their different cultures and governments of varying competence it will not work.
It is difficult enough for a competent government to run a successful economy in one country let alone the 19 members of the EZ out of the total 28 members of the EU.
With their different cultures and governments of varying competence it will not work.
Derek Smith said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Nice anecdote , but not sure what it is meant to illustrate. Greece is like some of the benefits claimants we have here, who want `nice' lifestyle that they see others (who have worked to be able to afford it) enjoying, but they want to be `given' it, whilst paying nothing in return.
My view is that given its history, Greece should never have been admitted into the EU / Eurozone in the first place, Both the EU were wrong in admitting Greece, and Greece was wrong for entering a club, that it knew full well it could not, and would be able to pay for, down right dishonesty.
I meant to show that there are different ways of living. You suggest a 'nice' lifestyle is unobtainable without working hard for it, but the point is that they were happy enough when they just bumbled along. If they want to flop around all day, then let them.My view is that given its history, Greece should never have been admitted into the EU / Eurozone in the first place, Both the EU were wrong in admitting Greece, and Greece was wrong for entering a club, that it knew full well it could not, and would be able to pay for, down right dishonesty.
The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the ?a?? ???, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
That is fine (for him), but large swathes of Greeks want to `flop' around, but with all the same lifestyle benefits that other countries (who are prepared to work hard for what they want) enjoy.
I have been to Greece for both holidays and work purposes, and was shocked at the backward, lazy, non productive, suspicious, aggressive, corrupt dishonest, (through all stratas of the population)
way the country was run.
Even 25 years ago I remember thinking, that if all of Greece is like this, they are in serious, serious trouble, and so it has come to pass. (and this before I realised they have had numerous bail outs over the last 180 years, from other countries, to keep going)
Still they cannot change their ways to a functioning self sustaining country / economy, but remain a basket case, surviving on, and dependent upon hand outs from other countries to survive which if they had any honour or honesty they would not have taken..
If they took nothing in hand outs from other countries I could almost concur with your view to let them live they way `they' want to, but the moment they were willing to take other peoples cash for nothing (which they7 did in billions) they changed the game completely.
wc98 said:
crossy67 said:
Derek Smith said:
I meant to show that there are different ways of living. You suggest a 'nice' lifestyle is unobtainable without working hard for it, but the point is that they were happy enough when they just bumbled along. If they want to flop around all day, then let them.
The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the ?a?? ???, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
Couldn't have written it better my self. Just because the UK population has bought fully into the Iphone, new car every other year, biggest Sky package, housing estate comfort doesn't mean it suits or is wanted by all. The consumer dream is for most a distant and frustrating dream.The fact that they seem to have different desires, life-styles and ways of working, then so be it.
You suggest that the EU should not have welcomed Greece. I feel certain that Greece was seen as a place to sell things to, open up the market to businesses in Germany, France and suchlike. I'm not sure the taverna owner, with his lack of TV and his little business to keep him in pocket money, was all that bothered.
You mention Greek history. Look at the political history, certainly post war, you can perhaps see why most of the inhabitants might feel a lack of incentive to cooperate with the government. The current crisis points the same way. Whilst I don't agree with reparations going on for decades, the war hurt Greece considerably.
If we(EU)'d left them alone in the main and not thrown money, or at least credit, which is more or less the same thing initially, at them, I'm sure that they would have sorted things out themselves. Most countries do. The Drachma would have been devalued against sensible currencies and the pensions would have been all but valueless. Except in Greece.
It does not make them evil, having a great life in the sun by wandering to the taverna twice a day and being nice to tourists. It is a way of life. Not one I'd choose, and it would appear from your posts, not your first choice. But if they were happy to slum it, then who am I, or who is the EU, to tell them otherwise?
You blame the Greeks, presumably the politicians, for getting into this mess. I would agree. iPads, smartphones, replacement computers every year and Sky TV might be a nice way of life, but there are others.
You criticise the Greeks for wanting the ?a?? ???, but they had it.
Without the Euro, their resources, of sun, blue see, islands and fabulous ruins, would have given them an income. With devaluation would come more tourists, more income and not a lot more work. 'We' stopped any chance of that. I'm not sure why.
I have been spending a month a year in Greece on holiday since 1996. I love the Greek people but would I trust them? Not with your money! I remember when Greece became part of the EU, the inflation was astounding. This was followed later that year by lots of Greeks buying German sports cars, Audi TTs BMW Z4's etc. A friend of mine who lived there at this time forecast what's happening now, he said "the Greeks don't realise they are going to have to pay for all this credit for the rest of their lives".
In the space of a year they went from farming families riding round on rotovators to sharp suits in Audi's.
They are quite happy however to take other peoples money for nothing (over decades) to support `their lifestyle' even in an increasingly competitive global economy.
Pan Pan Pan said:
You were referring to one individual,
No, of course I wasn't. I think you should read up on the recent history of Greece.
Pan Pan Pan said:
As one of the oldest nations / `democracies' in the world, one would have thought they could have got their act completely together by now, and be one of the best run countries on the planet. only they have not, have they? (and it seems they `choose' not to)
They are quite happy however to take other peoples money for nothing (over decades) to support `their lifestyle' even in an increasingly competitive global economy.
The idea that Greece invented democracy or that it is an old democracy does not stand up to scrutiny. They are quite happy however to take other peoples money for nothing (over decades) to support `their lifestyle' even in an increasingly competitive global economy.
There might be some support for it 'inventing' democracy, but even that is iffy on a number of grounds, the most obvious being that it was hardly democratic. Universal suffrage should be part of any democratic nation. Further, I feel certain other societies allowed adults say in the way they were governed. It is just that Greece wrote about it.
Further, where does this 'oldest' come in? It was a military dictatorship up until 1964 so it is, in fact, one of the youngest democracies.
Before that it was occupied by Germany, then Italy, then Germany again during the war, with that that entailed. The country was shattered. The only good thing about it was that it probably cost Germany victory over Russia.
I can't see where they chose to be invaded by Germany or chose to be taken over by a ruthless military junta, with the support, tacit or active, of the USA.
You seem to have a down on the Greeks. I have no idea why. If they were left alone, they would probably survive quite happily, fleecing tourists and building hotels. People who give them hand outs do it for their own reasons. With a floating currency they'd be happy sipping coffee.
zygalski said:
PRTVR said:
zygalski said:
AJS- said:
Agree with that.
It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Hang on a minute. The EU are in essence now trying to make Greece a more fiscally responsible country. How is that in any way a bad thing?It's amazing how few people see the EU for what it is. Or perhaps how few are prepared to call it what it is. They come bearing gifts of roads, they hand out wealth and status. They make conditions and extract tribute and over rule local governments when it suits them. They engaged in this idiotic struggle for the Ukraine with Russia to expand their sphere of influence.
It is, by any definition an empire. Yet still some insist it's about trade, or a "union" to bring people together.
Of course it's different in it's methods and it's presentation than previous empires. They all are.
Ok, they should obviously have forced root & branch banking reforms as a condition of entry before they allowed the Greeks to join the Euro, but come on.
it would be hard for the Greeks, we need to be there to help, but I do believe this is the only way.
The gift from the UK to help will not be ring fenced, it will appear on some accounts in the future,paragraph 962 subsection 24 miscellaneous expenses, it is just a statement to make the us feel better about giving money away and avoid any awkward questions about supporting the EZ. Basically we are doing as instructed by Brussels.
The approach the EU has taken with regards to Greece is perfectly reasonable.
Derek Smith said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
You were referring to one individual,
No, of course I wasn't. I think you should read up on the recent history of Greece.
Pan Pan Pan said:
As one of the oldest nations / `democracies' in the world, one would have thought they could have got their act completely together by now, and be one of the best run countries on the planet. only they have not, have they? (and it seems they `choose' not to)
They are quite happy however to take other peoples money for nothing (over decades) to support `their lifestyle' even in an increasingly competitive global economy.
The idea that Greece invented democracy or that it is an old democracy does not stand up to scrutiny. They are quite happy however to take other peoples money for nothing (over decades) to support `their lifestyle' even in an increasingly competitive global economy.
There might be some support for it 'inventing' democracy, but even that is iffy on a number of grounds, the most obvious being that it was hardly democratic. Universal suffrage should be part of any democratic nation. Further, I feel certain other societies allowed adults say in the way they were governed. It is just that Greece wrote about it.
Further, where does this 'oldest' come in? It was a military dictatorship up until 1964 so it is, in fact, one of the youngest democracies.
Before that it was occupied by Germany, then Italy, then Germany again during the war, with that that entailed. The country was shattered. The only good thing about it was that it probably cost Germany victory over Russia.
I can't see where they chose to be invaded by Germany or chose to be taken over by a ruthless military junta, with the support, tacit or active, of the USA.
You seem to have a down on the Greeks. I have no idea why. If they were left alone, they would probably survive quite happily, fleecing tourists and building hotels. People who give them hand outs do it for their own reasons. With a floating currency they'd be happy sipping coffee.
As for reading up on Greek history, I have done so back to the Hellenic wars in 323 BC, and overall their track record is not all that good.
Even the romans did not trust the Greeks any further than they could throw them (and the Romans were not exactly your average sunny dispositioned fluffies in history)
In the last war the Greeks were supplied huge quantities of arms ammunition and equipment by the allies to help them rid Greece of the Nazis, and what did they do with all those arms ammunition and equipment? they used them to start fighting amongst themselves FFS.
I have a down on the Greeks, because I have been there for both holidays and work, and was frankly shocked that an ostensibly European country, could operate such a corrupt (throughout their society)
backward, lazy, dishonest, aggressive, basket case way of running a country, that would not disgrace a corrupt, backward, lazy, dishonest, aggressive, basket banana republic, especially as other countries seem to have gotten by quite well, without resorting to what the Greeks have done.
People can only speak from their own experiences, and mine of Greece were pretty dire, even more so once I realised what they were like, and was ready for their antics.
I also agree they should be left alone, by exiting them immediately from the EU and Eurozone, and let them get on with things themselves the way `they' want to.
As for those in the EU who have / will lose cash in all of this fiasco, I would just say tough, you knew what they were like, but you did it anyway, so just take the hit, and walk away.
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