This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)
Discussion
V41LEY said:
I'd suggest the Greeks start selling off sovereign territory to pay their debts. They have thousands off uninhabited spots they could flog off !
They are and they have been sold off for the last couple of years.http://www.privateislandsonline.com/areas/greece
So youve borrowed some wonga from Mr IMF loan shark and now he wants it back plus interest, BUT! instead of sending the boys round with a bat and intentions on adjusting some legs, Mr IMF loan shark and his buddies, Mr ECB and Mr EU decide to offer another loan to pay back the overdue loan thereby increasing the size of the debt.....
I can see a teeny flaw with that....
I can see a teeny flaw with that....
The Mad Monk said:
jonah35 said:
I think there will be a lot more can kicking but ultimately I could see this ending in a war. Certainly a civil war but there could be a war with Germany.
I think Greece has definitely done the ight thing by having a vote. It should be up to the people to democratically decide what they do. It should not be up to a few people in Germany, at the imf and ecb as that is completely u democratic. The people should decide their future.
If I was them I'd get out of the euro, suffer hardship (but retain dignity). They survived before the euro and they will survive after the euro.
Then other countries will be next in the firing line. This will go on for the next 20 years.
I think it's time for you to say to yourself "I think I have had more than enough to drink tonight, I am going to bed".I think Greece has definitely done the ight thing by having a vote. It should be up to the people to democratically decide what they do. It should not be up to a few people in Germany, at the imf and ecb as that is completely u democratic. The people should decide their future.
If I was them I'd get out of the euro, suffer hardship (but retain dignity). They survived before the euro and they will survive after the euro.
Then other countries will be next in the firing line. This will go on for the next 20 years.
People are being thrown off buildings, drowned to death, tortured and cut up on a daily basis. Just because it is Europe it does not mean that the Greeks do not have a lot of anger towards Germany, there is no rule saying Korea, Africa, Middle East and so on can have wars but Europe can't just because it's Europe. When people get desperate economies can break down quickly.
If there was no food, no medicine, no petrol and you were starving in this country it wouldn't take long until people were resorting to extreme measures here believe it or not.
I don't really see the fault line for a Greek civil war as things stand. I could imagine some sort of a coup suspending democratic government "in the interests of stability" as coups usually are. How that then plays out is anyoneanyone's guess.
It truly will be a blight on the EU's claim to support peace and democracy though, if having brought Greece into the EU as a country recovering from a military junta it managed to produce another dictatorship from the ruins of the Greek economy.
It truly will be a blight on the EU's claim to support peace and democracy though, if having brought Greece into the EU as a country recovering from a military junta it managed to produce another dictatorship from the ruins of the Greek economy.
4v6 said:
So youve borrowed some wonga from Mr IMF loan shark and now he wants it back plus interest, BUT! instead of sending the boys round with a bat and intentions on adjusting some legs, Mr IMF loan shark and his buddies, Mr ECB and Mr EU decide to offer another loan to pay back the overdue loan thereby increasing the size of the debt.....
I can see a teeny flaw with that....
Don't worry, it'll all work out fine in the end!I can see a teeny flaw with that....
Arguably the war in Ukraine is a European conflict, plus it was only in the 1990's that we had a war in Serbia. Of course a war could happen, but I don't see tiny Greece starting a conflict, what are the going to do? Send both their ships to invade Germany ?
Plus loads of Greeks now live and work overseas, so don't think a conflict is going to gain any kind of support.
Still if a large wooden horse turns up outside the Brandenberg gates, then I guess it's ON.
A lot depends on the vote.
If they side with Russia then anything can happen.
There are already riot squads on the ground.
I think they will vote yes and the can kicking will continue for many more years until there can be no more can kicking when many other countries have been dragged down too.
If they side with Russia then anything can happen.
There are already riot squads on the ground.
I think they will vote yes and the can kicking will continue for many more years until there can be no more can kicking when many other countries have been dragged down too.
jonah35 said:
A lot depends on the vote.
If they side with Russia then anything can happen.
There are already riot squads on the ground.
I think they will vote yes and the can kicking will continue for many more years until there can be no more can kicking when many other countries have been dragged down too.
If the vote goes the other way and Greece does their equivalent of an Iceland, would one or two other EZ countries not need too much dragging out of the EZ? We may never know!If they side with Russia then anything can happen.
There are already riot squads on the ground.
I think they will vote yes and the can kicking will continue for many more years until there can be no more can kicking when many other countries have been dragged down too.
Troubleatmill said:
Rich1973 said:
Fag packet calculation shows that Greece owes £35k per head of population.
Spiralling unemployment & productivity puts them in an impossible position.
I'm sure we are in the hole for over £30,000 for every man, woman and child also.Spiralling unemployment & productivity puts them in an impossible position.
Rich1973 said:
Productivity
They don't really have any.Go on, think of a Greek export, other than the odd olive, that you can buy in Britain?
http://www.madein-greece.com/#sthash.kzfNZR4P.9pql...
Gargamel said:
Arguably the war in Ukraine is a European conflict, plus it was only in the 1990's that we had a war in Serbia. Of course a war could happen, but I don't see tiny Greece starting a conflict, what are the going to do? Send both their ships to invade Germany ?
Plus loads of Greeks now live and work overseas, so don't think a conflict is going to gain any kind of support.
Still if a large wooden horse turns up outside the Brandenberg gates, then I guess it's ON.
That WOULD actually be really funny if some Greeks did that Plus loads of Greeks now live and work overseas, so don't think a conflict is going to gain any kind of support.
Still if a large wooden horse turns up outside the Brandenberg gates, then I guess it's ON.
I'm sorry to point this out, but it is their fault.
They live in a democracy. Businesses, foreign countries and the IMF do not have votes in their elections.
But the people did have the vote. They voted for a long succession of people that pursued foolish policies, failed to run the country properly and did nothing to stop problems getting worse.
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just pointing out an often conveniently forgotten aspect of democracy. If it all goes wrong, it is the people's fault.
They live in a democracy. Businesses, foreign countries and the IMF do not have votes in their elections.
But the people did have the vote. They voted for a long succession of people that pursued foolish policies, failed to run the country properly and did nothing to stop problems getting worse.
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just pointing out an often conveniently forgotten aspect of democracy. If it all goes wrong, it is the people's fault.
cymtriks said:
I'm just pointing out an often conveniently forgotten aspect of democracy. If it all goes wrong, it is the people's fault.
I used to live in Venezuela, one of the most oil rich countries on Earth. They voted Chavez, in under 5 years of populist socialism even bogroll and nappies were rationed, let alone rice or meat. ATG said:
how can you have a monetary union without a fiscal union. Easy. It's called fiscal discipline. That's all you have to do. There was this thing called the Stability Pact that set out the fiscal rules countries that joined the Euro were supposed to adhere to. It was largely draughted by the Bundesbank, widely regarded as the most successful central bank on the planet. The French insisted it be watered down by introducing a bunch of caveats and excuses, and lo we had the Stability and Growth Pact, and no credible way of holding anyone to account for breaking its rules. Fiscal indiscipline in a monetary union with no fiscal transfers is going to be a car crash. Governments were too weak to enforce it, the public too badly informed (thick) to insist on it. Guess what? Car crash.
what a load of fEdited by ATG on Saturday 4th July 23:17
king ste . what you are really talking about are a bunch of rules dreamt up by a bunch of idealist academic economic fannies that payed no attention to the reality of human nature. thick you say, i say people just were not interested in he dreams of the political elite only interested in self aggrandisement and some warped fantasy of being remembered historically. they will be remembered of course ,but for very different reasons.as the s
t continues to hit the fan and the people become more desperate ,the well off in greece would be well advised to leave the country. if i was in this situation i know whose doors i would be kicking down, whose fridges i would be feeding my kids from and whose cars i would be taking . all i can say is the pasty faced fannies in brussels are very lucky greece is not on thie doorstep, or they would be swinging from the lamp posts as we speak.the current haves aroundeurope would do well to remember they are rapidly becoming vastly outnumbered by the have nots , in every country.
AJS- said:
The narrative that the whole country retires at 40 and lives on ouzo and olives while dodging taxes is as simplistic and misleading as it sounds.
The country was bounced into the Euro by a fanatical political class both in Greece and the rest of the EU, and has suffered years of economic collapse as a result of the stubborn refusal of that same political class to accept that their project has failed.
spot on. the notion an entire nation was going to change the habits of a lifetime due to joining some fantasy collective supposedly for the greater good (not working out so well is it) was ludicrous . the fact the grubby paws of the likes of goldman sachs were all over their acceptance to the ez should have been enough to show they were unable to meet the fiscal criteria for membership and should never have joined.The country was bounced into the Euro by a fanatical political class both in Greece and the rest of the EU, and has suffered years of economic collapse as a result of the stubborn refusal of that same political class to accept that their project has failed.
Common Market (hopefully the tune will be obvious).
She comes from Greece; she doesn’t find it funny
The men in Athens have lost all the money
So she tries
To get by
Just ten years ago she was loaded
But now her savings have eroded
She could cry
But she doesn’t realise why
She says
She wants to be like German people
She wants to do whatever German people do
Wants to earn like German people
A second home and BMW too
Like they said she would do
When Greece joined in the EU
She lost her future on the Greek stock market
Thought her money would perform much better elsewhere
So she put it there
The politicians keep on talking
Achieve as always not a single damn thing
And her country’s sliding into chaos
That’s for sure
Why can’t they be like German people?
Why can’t they do whatever German people do?
They hear enough from Mrs Merkel
Why won’t she come and show them what to do?
But she doesn’t understand
She just sticks right to her plan
Now her daddy’s closed his shop
He’ll not find another job
And he’s begging on the street
Hoping tourists help him make ends meet
But they never get it right
Just exacerbate their plight
As their banks go to the wall
Thinking Mr Tsipras can stop it all - yeah
You’ll never be like German people
You’ll never live like German people do
Never win like German people
Just watch your country slide out of view
Keep believ-ing the lies
That the EU sells to you
BREAK
Laugh along with your Brussels masters
Laugh along and it might just get you through
Laugh along with the Brussels masters
Laugh along even though they laugh at you
And the stupid things that you do
‘Cause you believe in the EU
She comes from Greece; she doesn’t find it funny
The men in Athens have lost all the money
So she tries
To get by
Just ten years ago she was loaded
But now her savings have eroded
She could cry
But she doesn’t realise why
She says
She wants to be like German people
She wants to do whatever German people do
Wants to earn like German people
A second home and BMW too
Like they said she would do
When Greece joined in the EU
She lost her future on the Greek stock market
Thought her money would perform much better elsewhere
So she put it there
The politicians keep on talking
Achieve as always not a single damn thing
And her country’s sliding into chaos
That’s for sure
Why can’t they be like German people?
Why can’t they do whatever German people do?
They hear enough from Mrs Merkel
Why won’t she come and show them what to do?
But she doesn’t understand
She just sticks right to her plan
Now her daddy’s closed his shop
He’ll not find another job
And he’s begging on the street
Hoping tourists help him make ends meet
But they never get it right
Just exacerbate their plight
As their banks go to the wall
Thinking Mr Tsipras can stop it all - yeah
You’ll never be like German people
You’ll never live like German people do
Never win like German people
Just watch your country slide out of view
Keep believ-ing the lies
That the EU sells to you
BREAK
Laugh along with your Brussels masters
Laugh along and it might just get you through
Laugh along with the Brussels masters
Laugh along even though they laugh at you
And the stupid things that you do
‘Cause you believe in the EU
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