Pamplona Running of the Bulls
Discussion
IainT said:
Oooh, the "it's tradition" argument, well done.
How about it is "their tradition" and forcing our morals and beliefs on another culture may be considered a form of oppression?Toleration means being tolerant of things you find questionable not merely things you agree with.
Thankyou4calling said:
I'm afraid I'm going to stick up for the bull running.
Ive done it and it really is quite something, my Dad ran with the Bulls at age 72 ( and again at 73)
I'd be surprised if more don't come on in favour of the event.
Any injuries are a risk that you factor in and to be honest there aren't that many bull related ones taking into consideration the thousands who take part.
Are the bull poorly treated?
They mostly end up in a bullfight and die by the sword, it's not a humane death but it's a Spanish tradition and long may it continue.
I'd love to experience it one day although I'd be well away from the sharp end. Ive done it and it really is quite something, my Dad ran with the Bulls at age 72 ( and again at 73)
I'd be surprised if more don't come on in favour of the event.
Any injuries are a risk that you factor in and to be honest there aren't that many bull related ones taking into consideration the thousands who take part.
Are the bull poorly treated?
They mostly end up in a bullfight and die by the sword, it's not a humane death but it's a Spanish tradition and long may it continue.
Jinx said:
IainT said:
Oooh, the "it's tradition" argument, well done.
How about it is "their tradition" and forcing our morals and beliefs on another culture may be considered a form of oppression?Toleration means being tolerant of things you find questionable not merely things you agree with.
Slavery was traditional and legal. Now it's not.
Just because something is tradition should not give it special protection or status. Traditions should stand up to scrutiny as should any practice.
On this tradition - I find Bull Running more objectionable than farming cows for food but less objectionable than Bull Rings. I'm of the opinion that the latter will die out eventually - support in Spain seems to have waned, Catalonia banned it in 2010. Most recent poll data I could see showed a swing from ~40% against in 1995 to 60% against in 2010. Didn't find anything more recent in a very quick search.
As society progresses 'bad' traditions have a way of dieing out quietly, some need a helping hand. Some good traditions die out too, such is change.
Ayahuasca said:
greygoose said:
spaximus said:
I think it was Earnest Hemmingway that said only Bullfighting and motor racing were sports, the rest are just games.
It is a subject that will always raise the hackles of many, we are cruel to animals as are animals to each other. People who say they eat meant as the beasts have had a humane death have never been in an abattoir, which ever way you look at it death is cruel.
The trouble with most things is people always want to ban everything, it is up to the Spanish what they allow and do not allow why should we dictate?
If the Spanish stoned homosexuals and encouraged rape of children then should we ignore that too or is it just cruelty to animals that can be ignored?It is a subject that will always raise the hackles of many, we are cruel to animals as are animals to each other. People who say they eat meant as the beasts have had a humane death have never been in an abattoir, which ever way you look at it death is cruel.
The trouble with most things is people always want to ban everything, it is up to the Spanish what they allow and do not allow why should we dictate?
Hooli said:
Ayahuasca said:
greygoose said:
spaximus said:
I think it was Earnest Hemmingway that said only Bullfighting and motor racing were sports, the rest are just games.
It is a subject that will always raise the hackles of many, we are cruel to animals as are animals to each other. People who say they eat meant as the beasts have had a humane death have never been in an abattoir, which ever way you look at it death is cruel.
The trouble with most things is people always want to ban everything, it is up to the Spanish what they allow and do not allow why should we dictate?
If the Spanish stoned homosexuals and encouraged rape of children then should we ignore that too or is it just cruelty to animals that can be ignored?It is a subject that will always raise the hackles of many, we are cruel to animals as are animals to each other. People who say they eat meant as the beasts have had a humane death have never been in an abattoir, which ever way you look at it death is cruel.
The trouble with most things is people always want to ban everything, it is up to the Spanish what they allow and do not allow why should we dictate?
You know the one where the hear hysterical "all the chickens are poisoned don't eat chicken" BBC expert group spokesperson actually turned out to be an equally expert hysterical vegan??
just wondering, that’s all...
No idea on the TV interview, I've not seen one for a month & have never heard of that chicken bug.
Exactly we are animals, so we aren't any more important than bulls (for example).
Jinx said:
Hooli said:
It's abuse of an innocent sentient lifeform. I don't understand why humans are valued above animals tbh, most of the time they deserve to be lower.
Does a cat value a mouse as highly as a cat? We are animals.I'm gonna disagree again.
I'm not an animal.
I'm a human and yes, I'm way more important than a bull or any other animal.
I'm the ruling species of this Earth and that's a fact. Don't lump me in with animals many of which are very nice to look at, eat, pet and whatever but I'm better than them.
I'm not an animal.
I'm a human and yes, I'm way more important than a bull or any other animal.
I'm the ruling species of this Earth and that's a fact. Don't lump me in with animals many of which are very nice to look at, eat, pet and whatever but I'm better than them.
RobinBanks said:
Am I allowed to say that I couldn't give a s
t about the bulls either way?
And anyway, can we go back to the topic? (Pamplona bull run and a bloke having a new hole in his gooch)
This is why I'm going to go. Sounds like a good spectator sport to me. I will pass on the bull fight after as the bull stands no chance there but the bull run, watching the Spanish getting trampled and spiked on a bulls horn I'm all for it. t about the bulls either way?And anyway, can we go back to the topic? (Pamplona bull run and a bloke having a new hole in his gooch)
I did it last year with some mates and it was totally great.
Make your own mind up: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru1bku898l6ev4x/Pamplona...
Make your own mind up: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru1bku898l6ev4x/Pamplona...
Thankyou4calling said:
I'm gonna disagree again.
I'm not an animal.
I'm a human and yes, I'm way more important than a bull or any other animal.
I'm the ruling species of this Earth and that's a fact. Don't lump me in with animals many of which are very nice to look at, eat, pet and whatever but I'm better than them.
I'm sure that'll be very comforting if you ever find yourself swimming with a great white, or running with a hungry lion.I'm not an animal.
I'm a human and yes, I'm way more important than a bull or any other animal.
I'm the ruling species of this Earth and that's a fact. Don't lump me in with animals many of which are very nice to look at, eat, pet and whatever but I'm better than them.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8a7_1436383744
rule nr. 1 when annoying the bull - try not to land on your head
rule nr. 1 when annoying the bull - try not to land on your head
Einion Yrth said:
Thankyou4calling said:
I'm gonna disagree again.
I'm not an animal.
I'm a human and yes, I'm way more important than a bull or any other animal.
I'm the ruling species of this Earth and that's a fact. Don't lump me in with animals many of which are very nice to look at, eat, pet and whatever but I'm better than them.
I'm sure that'll be very comforting if you ever find yourself swimming with a great white, or running with a hungry lion.I'm not an animal.
I'm a human and yes, I'm way more important than a bull or any other animal.
I'm the ruling species of this Earth and that's a fact. Don't lump me in with animals many of which are very nice to look at, eat, pet and whatever but I'm better than them.
It's great being "important" but humans are just animals, and particularly fragile ones at that.
Jinx said:
IainT said:
Oooh, the "it's tradition" argument, well done.
How about it is "their tradition" and forcing our morals and beliefs on another culture may be considered a form of oppression?Toleration means being tolerant of things you find questionable not merely things you agree with.
So - assuming you would want to limit the proclivities of some - oppressing individuals is right, but oppressing whole groups of people (the culture argument; tradition) is not? So if a group of people want to do evil things tat's OK when it wouldn't be for one? What size number do you draw the line at?
Tolerance eh? The self-proclaimed sleeve-card wearing liberal's excuse to allow anything that goes? Do you tolerate ant-semitism, as just one example?
Oh, and re. the 'telling other nations what to do' line, we are impacted by rulings and laws from our membership of the EU, why not accept that a country like Spain might have to do the same on issues the majority of member nations would limit?
LastLight said:
Substituting another person for another culture, so " forcing our morals and beliefs on another person may be considered a form of oppression?" how do you stand on that then?
So - assuming you would want to limit the proclivities of some - oppressing individuals is right, but oppressing whole groups of people (the culture argument; tradition) is not? So if a group of people want to do evil things tat's OK when it wouldn't be for one? What size number do you draw the line at?
Tolerance eh? The self-proclaimed sleeve-card wearing liberal's excuse to allow anything that goes? Do you tolerate ant-semitism, as just one example?
Oh, and re. the 'telling other nations what to do' line, we are impacted by rulings and laws from our membership of the EU, why not accept that a country like Spain might have to do the same on issues the majority of member nations would limit?
Typical authoritarian nonsense - we are "better" so you must act like us.... Rulings and Laws are the "might is right" of collectivism and have no more moral authority than a gun. It is their country if they decide to abandon their traditions it is up to them - yes we can acknowledge our disapproval and suggest that they may want to reconsider, but you either accept that they have as much right over their actions as you do yours or you advocate tyranny. So - assuming you would want to limit the proclivities of some - oppressing individuals is right, but oppressing whole groups of people (the culture argument; tradition) is not? So if a group of people want to do evil things tat's OK when it wouldn't be for one? What size number do you draw the line at?
Tolerance eh? The self-proclaimed sleeve-card wearing liberal's excuse to allow anything that goes? Do you tolerate ant-semitism, as just one example?
Oh, and re. the 'telling other nations what to do' line, we are impacted by rulings and laws from our membership of the EU, why not accept that a country like Spain might have to do the same on issues the majority of member nations would limit?
Can't say I've any sympathy for the guy who was turned into a hermaphrodite, he knew the risks (bet he regrets it now though ).
As for bull fighting I think it's nasty and wouldn't allow it if it was up to me but at least the bull gets a tiny chance to take out the matador and a few members of the public on his way out. Given he would otherwise end up as burgers after a meeting with a bolt gun then I find it hard to be too outraged. Setting fire to cats and dogs is just sick though and anyone who does should be in prison.
).As for bull fighting I think it's nasty and wouldn't allow it if it was up to me but at least the bull gets a tiny chance to take out the matador and a few members of the public on his way out. Given he would otherwise end up as burgers after a meeting with a bolt gun then I find it hard to be too outraged. Setting fire to cats and dogs is just sick though and anyone who does should be in prison.
BoRED S2upid said:
RobinBanks said:
Am I allowed to say that I couldn't give a st about the bulls either way?
And anyway, can we go back to the topic? (Pamplona bull run and a bloke having a new hole in his gooch)
This is why I'm going to go. Sounds like a good spectator sport to me. I will pass on the bull fight after as the bull stands no chance there but the bull run, watching the Spanish getting trampled and spiked on a bulls horn I'm all for it. t about the bulls either way?And anyway, can we go back to the topic? (Pamplona bull run and a bloke having a new hole in his gooch)
I started from about 2/3 of the way along the course just before a place a few of the locals called "dead-mans curve" I think. I got to run around the corner, then about 250m or so up the hill, through the entrance and into the bull-ring. It was a massive adrenaline rush, cleared my hangover in seconds! As often happens with adrenaline rush events I can remember it all really clearly, but won't bore everyone with the details. A lot of fun but...
...in hindsight I have to say it was a stupid thing to do, 2 people were quite badly gored behind me, and in the arena I saw an american guy caught by his shorts and flicked up and down 2 or 3 times by a (relatively) little bull before his trousers ripped and the bull caught him one last time "on the volley". He was out cold, got trampled on and then some locals grabbed him by the ankles, dragged him to the edge of the arena and bundled him over to the safe side. He was in a right mess by the time he flopped over the barrier!
I normally have a reasonable self-preservation instinct, but I am prone to disengage my brain at times and do very silly things. I'm glad I did it, but I won't do it again - I might not be lucky next time! I had some photos somewhere but I haven't seen them for ages.
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