Good work Police Scotland

[mcdjl]

I hadn't seen that before. Even that description is to me ambiguous: to me 'on the fork' would be the grass area between the M9/M80. Its possible the operator looked at a camera (are there any there?) at the fork area and couldn't see a car. All the while missing that the car had gone off down the embankment to the left of the carriage way at the split of the M9/M80. Ie the caller wasn't as accurate as they could be, the operator misinterpreted the description.
It seems odd that hes saying it wasn't visible from the motorway, and yet for the next two days he saw it. That (to me) suggests the caller wasn't on the motorway.
I don't know if there are cameras covering that junction, so like my earlier post this possibility is a theory/suposition. Given what I've seen of the set up in England its a possibility.

[wc98]

a possible insight into how this occurred .

These included not responding to 999 calls, such as one occasion where a man who placed an emergency call as he was assaulted was not contacted until weeks later; a backlog of 10,000 call cards; an emergency call logged as a minor incident, which later turned out to be a serious assault; and no back-up being available when plainclothes police officers were attacked and logged an emergency request for help

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/m9-crash...

apologies if repost.it may seem like a cop out (pardon the pun) but budgetary measures are having an impact on how the service is run . this will lead to mistakes and oversights ,some of which will be serious.

[johnxjsc1985]

wc98 said:

it may seem like a cop out (pardon the pun) but budgetary measures are having an impact on how the service is run . this will lead to mistakes and oversights ,some of which will be serious.

you hear this a lot about Public services these days.My experiences of the Police and the Health service is that an awful lot of people who work there dont give a fk and have huge chips on their already droopy shoulders.
I actually blame the media a lot for constantly reporting negatively about the emergency services.

[anonymous-user]

Rovinghawk said:

La Liga said:

words like "process" are BS bingo.

BUT:

La Liga said:

Now it's the full circumstances are nearly established, they can go through the process of assessment the severity and degree of the mistake and take appropriate action against whoever and see if there's anything to put in place from a process / system point of view to minimise the risk of this occurring again.

I refer you to earlier, where I suggested your comment was bullst bingo.

Nice editing to take out the sarcastic context. You're really scraping the barrel with deliberate misrepresentation. It's pretty clear when presented with the full / surrounding sentences I was suggesting the opposite.

La Liga said:

Suggesting this incident requires the processes and procedures examined to see if there's an opportunity to reduce the chance of it reoccurring is a "smoke screen", apparently. Also, words like "process" are BS bingo. It's clearly an obfuscated term.

richie99 said:

I think this poster was simply trying to suggest that it is not possible for a police 'service' to do everything and they have to prioritise. A focus on people being rude online and the much publicised plan to relentlessly pursue drivers who are 1 mph over the speed limit necessarily means that saving people's lives has less focus than in a police force not focused on such things.

That's a fallacy. What does the media team, who exist and therefore have a defined amount of time to use, have to do with a call handler who has made a mistake?

KarlMac said:

When you see a mistake made by the private sector that leads to loss of life it very quickly becomes X person who is prosecuted, seeing the same standards applied to the Police's internal departments would go a long way to satisfying some of the 'antis'.

I disagree. Very few private sector areas deal with the degree of risk and 'life and death' as the public services. The 'business' is fundamentally different. Rarely is there ever the opportunity for such indirect consequences in the private sector i.e. a call centre handler makes a mistake and it results in a death. Can you think of any other industry where a call handler could do that? They make a mistake at Sky my box may not be delivered. H&S law will nearly always cover private sector deaths. Very rarely does it every venture into criminal law.

NoNeed said:

I think I am old fashioned in expecting honesty from our coppers but it appears that every few months they do something else to erode our trust and resoect.

I can accept mistakes and dropped bks but lies just make me want to bring back hanging to set examples as if you can't trust a copper who can you trust.

The likes of Derek will never get that for one simple reason, they are not prepared to look in a mirror to see a human being, they are far too busy hiding behing their stained uniforms.

These chaps have been surveying 'trust in professions' since 1983. Trust in the police (Plc on the table) and many other professions has been steady since they started measuring over 30 years ago. I know you've not fallen for the flawed "they lost all our trust" thinking others so, but since you mentioned it I thought I'd add it. It's also interesting to consider that perception is very flawed. Why would people trust the police the same now as in the early 1980s? It certainly should be higher these days. Have the police, or any profession that remains steady within there not become more or less trust worthy in that time?

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/re...

People like RH don't like links like the above because they don't conclude / indicate that he wants to be. This usually follows with a misrepresentation and side-step like, "They have surveys. The police do nothing wrong".

wc98 said:

a possible insight into how this occurred .

These included not responding to 999 calls, such as one occasion where a man who placed an emergency call as he was assaulted was not contacted until weeks later; a backlog of 10,000 call cards; an emergency call logged as a minor incident, which later turned out to be a serious assault; and no back-up being available when plainclothes police officers were attacked and logged an emergency request for help

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/m9-crash...

apologies if repost.it may seem like a cop out (pardon the pun) but budgetary measures are having an impact on how the service is run . this will lead to mistakes and oversights ,some of which will be serious.

Cuts aren't an excuse, assuming the story is true - the chap could have asked someone else or something similar. It does raise the debate of the wider consequences of funding reductions and increases in risk. The more simple-thinking on here dismiss anyone who date talk of the potential consequences of cuts as wholly blaming them, when in fact the impact / potential impact requires thought and debate.

[anonymous-user]

drivetrain said:

La Liga, your response is pathetic.

From your previous posts you will defend police tactics and response procedures regardless of any form of police criticism justified or not.

Where have I done that?

I literally wrote they need to deal with the person who didn't put the call on the system and review what they do to make sure it doesn't happen again.

How is it possible you and others haven't seen that? I'd say the only parody is your portrayal of my stance.

[Mojocvh]

NoNeed said:

Mojocvh said:

Oh for heavens sake you're completely off the plot

Why?


Why is it wrong to expect our police to be an example of honesty?

At least have the balls to actually stand by what you said, not sleek away like a cowed dog.

[Mr Whippy]

Too busy arresting someone for tweeting something slightly offensive.

Pretty lame from their police.

Someone high up with a big salary needs to fall on their sword methinks.

[NoNeed]

La Liga said:

Unteresting stuff

Thanks

[NoNeed]

Mojocvh said:

At least have the balls to actually stand by what you said, not sleek away like a cowed dog.

Who's sleeking away?


I asked a question


why is it wrong to expect the police to be honest?

[NoNeed]

Derek Smith said:

I've not told lies, in neither posts on PH nor when I was a police officer. Nor am I hiding 'behing' anything. I've merely stated the situation as I understand it.

I have called you out on lies several times in our years on PH usually your anti-tory crap.


and some of the stories you post are straight from cloud cuckoo land.

[johnxjsc1985]

NoNeed said:

Who's sleeking away?


I asked a question


why is it wrong to expect the police to be honest?

I think some of us older member areused to holding the Police in high regard and expect them to behave with honesty and integrity at all times.
Sadly that is not the case today is it .

[NoNeed]

johnxjsc1985 said:

NoNeed said:

Who's sleeking away?


I asked a question


why is it wrong to expect the police to be honest?

I think some of us older member areused to holding the Police in high regard and expect them to behave with honesty and integrity at all times.
Sadly that is not the case today is it .

And any opinion to the contrary is police bashing if you agree with Derek's ramblings.


How many years did it take for the Hillsborough copper to admit he lied? I could list 20 or so other high profile police incidents since where they are taking the public for idiots.

I know they do a hard job that I myself couldn't do, and I don't expect perfection, but considering the role I do expect that honesty and integrity you mention, no I demand it.


Somebody dropped a bk, and I have no idea who but the quicker they get it out in the open an apologise the quicker we can all move on and save a fortune on all manner of public enquiries that we normally spend when the police won't admit a mistake.

[greygoose]

NoNeed said:

And any opinion to the contrary is police bashing if you agree with Derek's ramblings.


How many years did it take for the Hillsborough copper to admit he lied? I could list 20 or so other high profile police incidents since where they are taking the public for idiots.

I know they do a hard job that I myself couldn't do, and I don't expect perfection, but considering the role I do expect that honesty and integrity you mention, no I demand it.


Somebody dropped a bk, and I have no idea who but the quicker they get it out in the open an apologise the quicker we can all move on and save a fortune on all manner of public enquiries that we normally spend when the police won't admit a mistake.

I can't see any dishonesty so far, the police seem to have admitted there was a terrible mistake right from the start.

[Mojocvh]

NoNeed said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

NoNeed said:

Who's sleeking away?


I asked a question


why is it wrong to expect the police to be honest?

I think some of us older member areused to holding the Police in high regard and expect them to behave with honesty and integrity at all times.
Sadly that is not the case today is it .

And any opinion to the contrary is police bashing if you agree with Derek's ramblings.


How many years did it take for the Hillsborough copper to admit he lied? I could list 20 or so other high profile police incidents since where they are taking the public for idiots.

I know they do a hard job that I myself couldn't do, and I don't expect perfection, but considering the role I do expect that honesty and integrity you mention, no I demand it.


Somebody dropped a bk, and I have no idea who but the quicker they get it out in the open an apologise the quicker we can all move on and save a fortune on all manner of public enquiries that we normally spend when the police won't admit a mistake.

So, you'd rather save some money that get to the bottom of the matter with an inquiry despite saying that you can't trust what the police say.

RIGHT.

[NoNeed]

Mojocvh said:

So, you'd rather save some money that get to the bottom of the matter with an inquiry despite saying that you can't trust what the police say.

RIGHT.

No.


I would rather the person that knows they made a mistake (and they already know) put their hands up and say so. What we usually get with the police though is public enquiry after public enquiry and the truth several million pounds and 20 or 30 years later.

[NoNeed]

greygoose said:

I can't see any dishonesty so far, the police seem to have admitted there was a terrible mistake right from the start.

Very true.

so why do people like Derek still want to wait and see? why do we always need to wait and see? he has peppered this thread with potential excuses already. We should not need to wait, I have never heard of a police officer telling anybody in their custody to wait, they always say the confession is better and never say oh wait and see what we can dig up.

It would be better for the person who made the mistake t put their hands up and be honest so the matter can be put to rest and not leave the families waiting and wondering as normal police practice.

[Greendubber]

NoNeed said:

Very true.

so why do people like Derek still want to wait and see? why do we always need to wait and see? he has peppered this thread with potential excuses already. We should not need to wait, I have never heard of a police officer telling anybody in their custody to wait, they always say the confession is better and never say oh wait and see what we can dig up.

It would be better for the person who made the mistake t put their hands up and be honest so the matter can be put to rest and not leave the families waiting and wondering as normal police practice.

How do you know they haven't put their hands up?

Ah you don't that's right...

[Derek Smith]

NoNeed said:

greygoose said:

I can't see any dishonesty so far, the police seem to have admitted there was a terrible mistake right from the start.

Very true.

so why do people like Derek still want to wait and see? why do we always need to wait and see? he has peppered this thread with potential excuses already. We should not need to wait, I have never heard of a police officer telling anybody in their custody to wait, they always say the confession is better and never say oh wait and see what we can dig up.

It would be better for the person who made the mistake t put their hands up and be honest so the matter can be put to rest and not leave the families waiting and wondering as normal police practice.

This is bizarre.

Are you really asking why we should wait for facts before blaming the call taker?

The police have, as pointed out, admitted that they failed in their duties. I think everyone is agreed on that.

All I've suggested is that it might not be the sole fault of the call taker and that there might well be reasons for his behaviour.

'We should not need to wait . . .': the mantra of the lynch mob.

Read my posts and you will find that there are no excuses for the failure, none at all. All I've suggested is that people like you, who instinctively know who is at fault by some magic intuition, should wait until they have some facts.

I've said that it appears to be the call taker's error. Try and be sensible and mature enough to know that it is an assumption and might be wrong.

I view PH as a sort of chat around a pub table with a group of acquaintances. You might not like them all, and really resent the attitude of some, but the conversation is the thing that matters. There is a sort of code of behaviour, and calling someone a liar is just not on. Not only is it wrong in my case, but it is also rude and immature. Get a grip, be polite and let's have a conversation.

After four years in the department, I know about call taking and communications. I know the pressures they work under. Read, learn and some of your prejudices might well be challenged.

'We should not have to wait': really? It comes over as 'Mummy, I want it now.'

[KarlMac]

Derek Smith said:

This is bizarre.

Are you really asking why we should wait for facts before blaming the call taker?

The police have, as pointed out, admitted that they failed in their duties. I think everyone is agreed on that.

The point, which I'm fairly certain now your deliberately avoiding, is highlighted above. The service have admitted liability. There is someone within that service that knows "I fked up" and is too much of a coward to come forward.

I worked with a company involved in passenger rail vehicles. We employed temps on not much more than minimum wage, when we had a motor detach in service (which could have potentially resulted in a massive derailment) guess what, the team responsible stood up and said "it was us, we fked up". This is from someone doing heavy manual labour on 10 hour shifts for min wage, so I don't think its unreasonable to expect the same from the Police.

As mentioned above, you don't have to search for very long to find numerous examples of Police closing ranks to protect themselves. Rotherham grooming scandal being one close to me.

[Greendubber]

KarlMac said:

There is someone within that service that knows "I fked up" and is too much of a coward to come forward.

Where did you get that from?