Tube Strike

[crankedup]

Try using the East coast line 'service' pure ste in terms of punctuality, seating availability, cleanliness all packaged with exorbitant prices. Plenty of the local MP have griped but nothing changes, except the prices upward and the private bid winner..

[Zod]

crankedup said:

Try using the East coast line 'service' pure ste in terms of punctuality, seating availability, cleanliness all packaged with exorbitant prices. Plenty of the local MP have griped but nothing changes, except the prices upward and the private bid winner..

That is as may be, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Tube strikes.

[walm]

wolves_wanderer said:

walm said:

egor110 said:

A closed shop wouldn't advertise the job the union would approach staff re becoming a driver, this clearly isn't what happens with L.U.

So they advertise the job but only platform staff can apply?
Sounds like a good use of resources.

Promoting from within is a very good use of resources IME.

I meant that spending money on advertising (externally) is pointless if you only promote internally.

It would be similar to setting up an enormously expensive service to run at night when most of the maintenance gets done in order to provide transport for people who were perfectly happy taking Uber.

Both sides are accomplished at wasting our money!

[egor110]

Slaav said:

egor110 said:

A closed shop wouldn't advertise the job the union would approach staff re becoming a driver, this clearly isn't what happens with L.U.

err...

"A pre-entry closed shop (or simply closed shop) is a form of union security agreement under which the employer agrees to hire union members only, and employees must remain members of the union at all times in order to remain employed"

Not all platform staff are going to be union members , but all platform staff can apply for driver jobs regardless.

[Zod]

egor110 said:

Slaav said:

egor110 said:

A closed shop wouldn't advertise the job the union would approach staff re becoming a driver, this clearly isn't what happens with L.U.

err...

"A pre-entry closed shop (or simply closed shop) is a form of union security agreement under which the employer agrees to hire union members only, and employees must remain members of the union at all times in order to remain employed"

Not all platform staff are going to be union members , but all platform staff can apply for driver jobs regardless.

What proportion are union members? Under 99%?

[Slaav]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This would be interesting. I do get and am happy to concede the point of promoting from within as you have some experience of that employee but come on - does anybody really believe that the tube isn't a closed shop - if not legally matching the definition 100%?

[valiant]

Slaav said:

egor110 said:

A closed shop wouldn't advertise the job the union would approach staff re becoming a driver, this clearly isn't what happens with L.U.

err...

"A pre-entry closed shop (or simply closed shop) is a form of union security agreement under which the employer agrees to hire union members only, and employees must remain members of the union at all times in order to remain employed"

Anyone within LUL can apply to be a driver - when a recruitment drive is on, it is advertised via its internal intranet. You don't have to be a union member of any colour to apply. Also, there was a recent open campaign to recruit part time drivers for night tube for anyone outside the company to apply. 6000 applied for 180 positions. None of those are union members.

All recruitment, whether internal or external, is handled like any other company by a HR dept. There is no 'union selection panel'. You meet the requirements - you get the job.

An employee can leave the union at any time simply by cancelling their DD. Do you actually think you would be demoted from the grade or even fired for leaving the union? Employment lawyers would have lots of fun with that.

Closed shop practises were made illegal in '92.

[Slaav]

valiant said:

Slaav said:

egor110 said:

A closed shop wouldn't advertise the job the union would approach staff re becoming a driver, this clearly isn't what happens with L.U.

err...

"A pre-entry closed shop (or simply closed shop) is a form of union security agreement under which the employer agrees to hire union members only, and employees must remain members of the union at all times in order to remain employed"

Anyone within LUL can apply to be a driver - when a recruitment drive is on, it is advertised via its internal intranet. You don't have to be a union member of any colour to apply. Also, there was a recent open campaign to recruit part time drivers for night tube for anyone outside the company to apply. 6000 applied for 180 positions. None of those are union members.

All recruitment, whether internal or external, is handled like any other company by a HR dept. There is no 'union selection panel'. You meet the requirements - you get the job.

An employee can leave the union at any time simply by cancelling their DD. Do you actually think you would be demoted from the grade or even fired for leaving the union? Employment lawyers would have lots of fun with that.

Closed shop practises were made illegal in '92.

How dare you use logic and a well thought through argument to debunk my anger and knee jerk/hanging judge approach! That's just playing dirty and not fair.....



ps - I still think it is a bit of a closed shop

[crankedup]

Zod said:

crankedup said:

Try using the East coast line 'service' pure ste in terms of punctuality, seating availability, cleanliness all packaged with exorbitant prices. Plenty of the local MP have griped but nothing changes, except the prices upward and the private bid winner..

That is as may be, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Tube strikes.

Simply making a point, trade unions do not have a monopoly on ruining transportation, private enterprise also manage to annoy users.

[valiant]

Slaav said:

How dare you use logic and a well thought through argument to debunk my anger and knee jerk/hanging judge approach! That's just playingc dirty and not fair.....



ps - I still think it is a bit of a closed shop

[iphonedyou]

Zod said:

What proportion are union members? Under 99%?

If I recall correctly around 75 - 80% of operational staff in total. About 12% on the commercial side.

[Zod]

crankedup said:

Zod said:

crankedup said:

Try using the East coast line 'service' pure ste in terms of punctuality, seating availability, cleanliness all packaged with exorbitant prices. Plenty of the local MP have griped but nothing changes, except the prices upward and the private bid winner..

That is as may be, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Tube strikes.

Simply making a point, trade unions do not have a monopoly on ruining transportation, private enterprise also manage to annoy users.

That's whataboutism - favourite tactic of the Kippers on PH.

[crankedup]

Zod said:

crankedup said:

Zod said:

crankedup said:

Try using the East coast line 'service' pure ste in terms of punctuality, seating availability, cleanliness all packaged with exorbitant prices. Plenty of the local MP have griped but nothing changes, except the prices upward and the private bid winner..

That is as may be, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Tube strikes.

Simply making a point, trade unions do not have a monopoly on ruining transportation, private enterprise also manage to annoy users.

That's whataboutism - favourite tactic of the Kippers on PH.

Adding a little balance to the thread, privatised rail on the East coast line is nothing short of a sick joke. Quite a feat without the assistance of a trade union. Overland or underground our rail service is appalling, this twenty five years after privatisation, it had to be said.

Apologies I should perhaps have opened a new thread.

[KTF]

I have on idea if this was the original reason for wanting to go on strike or not but... "RMT union to recommend acceptance of pay and conditions deal for night Tube service in London, executive decides"

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35484773

[Mandalore]

Trevatanus said:

Robertj21a said:

Mandalore said:

All of the facts should be publicised so that Jo Public is aware exactly what the arguments are about and can make their own decisions about what is fair - rather than some journalist with an agenda.


Earnings, working hours, overtine, sick pay, pensions, closed-shop, benefits - all of it.

Union members have confirmed previously that they really don't care about the general public 's view of them nowadays as they know they will always be against them.

Fixed that for you.

LOL.

But, they do rely on public support, albeit well intentioned support generated by the press based on half-truths it would seem.


Im sure they think the term Hippocratic Oath, is something a hippo does when it steps on a nail.

[Trevatanus]

Unions clearly realise that they have "milked" this all they can.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35484773

[nikaiyo2]

crankedup said:

Adding a little balance to the thread, privatised rail on the East coast line is nothing short of a sick joke. Quite a feat without the assistance of a trade union. Overland or underground our rail service is appalling, this twenty five years after privatisation, it had to be said.

Apologies I should perhaps have opened a new thread.

That's as maybe, compared to life under BR it's bloody brilliant. On SWT at least they are fairly punctual now, I remember going to college by train and it not being worth going for a specific time as the trains turned up at any random time. Now the staff seam to pretend to be bothered, in BR days you were treat as a massive inconvenience.

25years of privatisation (more like 20, but never mind) yeah it's not perfect, but it's a HUGE improvement over how it was.

[crankedup]

nikaiyo2 said:

crankedup said:

Adding a little balance to the thread, privatised rail on the East coast line is nothing short of a sick joke. Quite a feat without the assistance of a trade union. Overland or underground our rail service is appalling, this twenty five years after privatisation, it had to be said.

Apologies I should perhaps have opened a new thread.

That's as maybe, compared to life under BR it's bloody brilliant. On SWT at least they are fairly punctual now, I remember going to college by train and it not being worth going for a specific time as the trains turned up at any random time. Now the staff seam to pretend to be bothered, in BR days you were treat as a massive inconvenience.

25years of privatisation (more like 20, but never mind) yeah it's not perfect, but it's a HUGE improvement over how it was.

Your line may be acceptable but like I say the East coast is dreadful. It's pointless attempting to compare old with new, all I can say is for the cost of rail travel for the passengers the massive Government subsidy thrown at the private companies and the absolute lack of accountability leaves a very sour taste foe me and tens of thousands of east coast rail users. It all amounts to a disgrace and embarrassment.

[Welshbeef]

crankedup said:

Your line may be acceptable but like I say the East coast is dreadful. It's pointless attempting to compare old with new, all I can say is for the cost of rail travel for the passengers the massive Government subsidy thrown at the private companies and the absolute lack of accountability leaves a very sour taste foe me and tens of thousands of east coast rail users. It all amounts to a disgrace and embarrassment.

The problem is only 7 year franchises

Now offer a duration whereby there is actual payback on new rolling stock then we will see progress. 7 years is nothing even if it's likely to get renewed its a commercial risk and who wants the liability of billions of rolling stock which you have to offload.



Another thing I don't get is why don't the really busy lines sell off their old rolling stock to the lesser lines and they can dispose of the old junk. Then the busy lines get new stock and so forth.

[rs1952]

Welshbeef said:

The problem is only 7 year franchises

Now offer a duration whereby there is actual payback on new rolling stock then we will see progress. 7 years is nothing even if it's likely to get renewed its a commercial risk and who wants the liability of billions of rolling stock which you have to offload.

Another thing I don't get is why don't the really busy lines sell off their old rolling stock to the lesser lines and they can dispose of the old junk. Then the busy lines get new stock and so forth.

The vast majority of the Train Operating Companies don't own their rolling stock - they lease it from leasing companies.


The main decision maker on who gets what rolling stock and where it gets used is Whitehall.

Not exactly on topic, but that's one of the odd things that I don't quite understand about those who think railway renationalisation is a good thing. The railway system is dictated to by government now far more than it ever was. In day to day practical terms, it already is nationalised