Discussion
crankedup said:
Given a choice I would much rather choose a travel system which operated a 'human back-up' at the very least. But we have to do things in life that compromise our preferences occasionally. I, like most people travel by aircraft from time to time, the automation of some aircraft has reached limits of which I currently find uncomfortable. My preference is certainly favouring the 'human touch'.
As a matter of interest does anyone have any figures on the relative safety of automatic trains vs driver operated trains? barryrs said:
With 3 bedroom houses for sale in Wembley at circa £275k - £300k and less than 1km to the underground network living around London for drivers shouldn't be that difficult.
So, a mortgage based on six times annual salary?What could possibly go wrong with such a sub-prime market?
Studio117 said:
Are the drivers paid too much or the rest of us too little?
That really depends on who you compare it to. Do you think they should be paid more than a Nurse? Or a teacher?
Irrespective of the pay they currently get, what boils my piss is that year on year they manage to bring London to an almost standstill with their woeful tales of being worked too hard for not enough money and its not fair, blah, blah. Without doing research, I would hazard a pretty good guess that they have had bigger pay increases than any other public servant (excluding the burglars of Westminster), so at what point is 'enough' and them being content with what they are getting? I'm not sure we'll never see that day
Fleegle said:
Du1point8 said:
To try to reassure staff, LU has just sent out draft copies of what new shift-patterns might look like. It says staff will either work the same number of weekends a year, or fewer. And in the end, anyone who doesn't want to work nights won't have to.
Unions have still said its not fair and demand changes.
Plus they are demanding ticket offices back, this despite the fact I hardly ever saw them open and most people don't use them as they have oyster/contactless, the ticket machines are hardly rocket science to use.
They have also thrown in a '32 hour, 4 day week' into the mix.Unions have still said its not fair and demand changes.
Plus they are demanding ticket offices back, this despite the fact I hardly ever saw them open and most people don't use them as they have oyster/contactless, the ticket machines are hardly rocket science to use.
Sack the f
king lot of them and start againHopefully they'll go down the DLR driverless route a.s.a.p.
legzr1 said:
barryrs said:
With 3 bedroom houses for sale in Wembley at circa £275k - £300k and less than 1km to the underground network living around London for drivers shouldn't be that difficult.
So, a mortgage based on six times annual salary?What could possibly go wrong with such a sub-prime market?
s that they are, would simultaneously drive up house prices. Back to square one!legzr1 said:
barryrs said:
With 3 bedroom houses for sale in Wembley at circa £275k - £300k and less than 1km to the underground network living around London for drivers shouldn't be that difficult.
So, a mortgage based on six times annual salary?What could possibly go wrong with such a sub-prime market?
andymadmak said:
As a matter of interest does anyone have any figures on the relative safety of automatic trains vs driver operated trains?
Wiki says this about DLR:"Overrun of station buffers
On 10 March 1987, before the system opened, a test train crashed through buffer stops at the original high-level Island Gardens terminus and was left hanging from the end of the elevated track. The accident was caused by unauthorised tests being run before accident-preventing modifications had been installed. The train was being driven manually at the time.[112][113][114]
Collision at West India Quay bridge
On 22 April 1991, two trains collided at a junction on the West India Quay bridge during morning rush hour, requiring a shutdown of the system and evacuation of passengers by ladder.[115][116] One train was travelling automatically, while the other was under manual control.[117]
South Quay bombing
Main article: 1996 Docklands bombing
On 9 February 1996, the Provisional Irish Republican Army blew up a lorry under a bridge near South Quay,[118] killing two people and injuring many others.[119] The blast caused £85 million of damage and marked an end to the IRA ceasefire. Significant disruption was caused and a train was stranded at Island Gardens, unable to move until the track was rebuilt."
Thats it by the looks.
MrBarry123 said:
As a Conservative voter and continued supporter...
I've had a [very] slight change of thought around this...
I do actually feel sorry for people such as tube drivers who, whilst earning a relatively good wage, are simply not able to live anywhere near to where they work due to rising house prices in the centre of London. The same applies to teachers, the Police etc. They all provide a valuable service (one we would all be worse off without) however end up in a financially less than ideal situation as a result of facilitating that service.
As such, whilst I don't believe a strike will help to solve anything, I do have a degree of sympathy when they say that working in the centre of London becomes almost unsustainable.
I remember there was a thread on here a while back discussing the viability of living in London on a £60k wage where the general consensus was yes, as long as you weren't wanting to be a baller. Given a large proportion of these workers have families, I would hazard a guess that living in London on £60k and with a family is like something out of Oliver Twist.
I accept however that there's very little that can be done because the "growth" of our economy relies somewhat on rising house prices (helped along by London no-end) and no government is ever going to discourage that.
Still, a bit of a shame it's so fked up.
THis thought process is so reliant on unrealistic factors as to be incorrect, if you don't mind me saying.I've had a [very] slight change of thought around this...
I do actually feel sorry for people such as tube drivers who, whilst earning a relatively good wage, are simply not able to live anywhere near to where they work due to rising house prices in the centre of London. The same applies to teachers, the Police etc. They all provide a valuable service (one we would all be worse off without) however end up in a financially less than ideal situation as a result of facilitating that service.
As such, whilst I don't believe a strike will help to solve anything, I do have a degree of sympathy when they say that working in the centre of London becomes almost unsustainable.
I remember there was a thread on here a while back discussing the viability of living in London on a £60k wage where the general consensus was yes, as long as you weren't wanting to be a baller. Given a large proportion of these workers have families, I would hazard a guess that living in London on £60k and with a family is like something out of Oliver Twist.
I accept however that there's very little that can be done because the "growth" of our economy relies somewhat on rising house prices (helped along by London no-end) and no government is ever going to discourage that.
Still, a bit of a shame it's so f
ked up.Who, anywhere, really lives near work? In rush hour I have observed that the suburbs of almost any town or city are an hours commute to the centre and millions of people do it daily.
Tube drivers get free transport and the links are so good that an hours commute from central London could be almost anywhere within 60 miles.
£50-£60k is a huge salary for something so relatively unskilled.
The thought process of "I feel sorry for them, £60k is not enough in London" is based on magic money that appears from nowhere. If we extrapolated that to everyone who works in London that really should be on £100k per year 'because that's what you need to live isn't it?" then all the nurses,tradesmen,teachers,policemen, firemen,ambulance drivers,paramedics, bus drivers, taxi drivers, waiters, admin people etc etc etc the money we would need is incalculable.
Despite this magic perception that you need £100k to live in London, quite literally millions of people live on a fraction of that amount. What makes tube drivers so special that their skills to salary ratio is so out-of-kilter with the rest of the economy, and indeed the world?
PoleDriver said:
RichB said:
crankedup said:
... I would rather have a person in charge of the train.
But CU, does that mean you would not use the Docklands Light Railway (DLR)?But deliberately misunderstanding is often the PH way.
blindswelledrat said:
THis thought process is so reliant on unrealistic factors as to be incorrect, if you don't mind me saying.
Who, anywhere, really lives near work? In rush hour I have observed that the suburbs of almost any town or city are an hours commute to the centre and millions of people do it daily.
Tube drivers get free transport and the links are so good that an hours commute from central London could be almost anywhere within 60 miles.
£50-£60k is a huge salary for something so relatively unskilled.
The thought process of "I feel sorry for them, £60k is not enough in London" is based on magic money that appears from nowhere. If we extrapolated that to everyone who works in London that really should be on £100k per year 'because that's what you need to live isn't it?" then all the nurses,tradesmen,teachers,policemen, firemen,ambulance drivers,paramedics, bus drivers, taxi drivers, waiters, admin people etc etc etc the money we would need is incalculable.
Despite this magic perception that you need £100k to live in London, quite literally millions of people live on a fraction of that amount. What makes tube drivers so special that their skills to salary ratio is so out-of-kilter with the rest of the economy, and indeed the world?
How does the 24 hour tube driver get to work if he lives an hour from London?Who, anywhere, really lives near work? In rush hour I have observed that the suburbs of almost any town or city are an hours commute to the centre and millions of people do it daily.
Tube drivers get free transport and the links are so good that an hours commute from central London could be almost anywhere within 60 miles.
£50-£60k is a huge salary for something so relatively unskilled.
The thought process of "I feel sorry for them, £60k is not enough in London" is based on magic money that appears from nowhere. If we extrapolated that to everyone who works in London that really should be on £100k per year 'because that's what you need to live isn't it?" then all the nurses,tradesmen,teachers,policemen, firemen,ambulance drivers,paramedics, bus drivers, taxi drivers, waiters, admin people etc etc etc the money we would need is incalculable.
Despite this magic perception that you need £100k to live in London, quite literally millions of people live on a fraction of that amount. What makes tube drivers so special that their skills to salary ratio is so out-of-kilter with the rest of the economy, and indeed the world?
Fleegle said:
legzr1 said:
barryrs said:
With 3 bedroom houses for sale in Wembley at circa £275k - £300k and less than 1km to the underground network living around London for drivers shouldn't be that difficult.
So, a mortgage based on six times annual salary?What could possibly go wrong with such a sub-prime market?
s that they are, would simultaneously drive up house prices. Back to square one!
RichB said:
crankedup said:
... I would rather have a person in charge of the train.
But CU, does that mean you would not use the Docklands Light Railway (DLR)?Have to say I love these tube strikes as it gives me an excuse to take a nice walk along the South Bank - just wish they didn't reward the tube monkeys with generous pay-rises. They should take away their benefits if they strike more than X days a year - like they did at BA.
eccles said:
Studio117 said:
Are the drivers paid too much or the rest of us too little?
God, not this again! 
The number of applicants will tell you whether the pay & conditions are high or low.
Simple really - the workforce will respond to pay & conditions by either wanting to do the work or choosing to apply for other jobs where the demands/pay offer a better outcome.
Fleegle said:
So what about Nurses, Police, Bin men?? I wonder what ratio their mortgage would be. You do realise that if we put everyones wages up, estate agents, robbing s that they are, would simultaneously drive up house prices. Back to square one!
Race to the bottom then (of course, your salary would be safeguarded...) - lets get them all on minimum wage and fs that they are, would simultaneously drive up house prices. Back to square one!k the lot of them.Yes, sack the lot because they dared to inconvenience you - replace them all with £6.50 an hour agency staff and fingers crossed they don't join a union and 'back to square one'.
Perhaps the really clever London Mayor and his TFL managers should have thought about talking about the issues rather than thinking we're all back in the 1880's.
Or, what's the other half-arsed ridiculous 'idea' ? Oh yes, automate the Tube - it works on a small, 25mph tram system built from the ground up and designed from implementation to be staff-less (as long as you forget the permanent staff member on every train).
I'm glad that there are still people out there prepared to fight for what they think is right and won't just accept changes to T&Cs without a whimper.
Hackney said:
How does the 24 hour tube driver get to work if he lives an hour from London?
I don't really understand your question, but I think 'on the tube' is probably the answer as there isn't only one driver.Or on the night buses which London is full of. Or the overground trains which London is full of . Plus I would doubt very much that they will time the shifts to begin at 3am. But to answer it in a less helpful way: I couldn't care less. The same way that millions of other people who work in service industries get to work. Or a policeman. Or a fireman. Why is it that these things are supposedly so much worse for a tube driver than anyone else? What makes them so special?
These unions and therefore their meebers seem to forget that their very existence is to provide a service to the public. That is what the tube is for. It's sole purpose is not to proved optimal home lives and salaries for it's workers.
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