Jeremy Corbyn

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

Robert Peston tweet featured in The Guardian rolling updates this evening said:

Number of Labour joiners in past week is 60,000. Bloody hell. If most joining to defend Corbyn, scary for estranged MPs (& vice versa)

Vividly exposes a fundamental flaw in Miliband's £3 idea. No one - in particular Corbyn and Eagle - knows who these people will support. They could be Labour pro-Corbyn, Labour anti-Corbyn, or non-Labour pro-Corbyn spoilers. They are completely unknown yet they will have a say in who the next leader is. I suppose it makes a coup an even riskier proposition than it would normally be.

[Smollet]

With Boris gone and Corbyn possibly going we may not see the Eton versus Moth Eaten contest many wanted.

[Balmoral]

Derek Smith said:

The whole referendum was ill-thought-out. A disaster for all concerned. There will be blame and it won't be headed towards labour.

My wife and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum and also on the subject of the EU, but we both agree that it's Cameron's fault for floating it from the get go. A monumental miscalculation on his part.

[motco]

Smollet said:

With Boris gone and Corbyn possibly going we may not see the Eton versus Moth Eaten contest many wanted.

91.7% voted in favour of the NUT teachers' strike. Sounds pretty conclusive doesn't it? Until, that is, you know the turnout was a mere 24.5%. That means a <25% of teachers voted for a strike. Apathy rules OK?

[turbobloke]

Smollet said:

With Boris gone and Corbyn possibly going we may not see the Eton versus Moth Eaten contest many wanted.

[Johnnytheboy]

[Halb]

Balmoral said:

y wife and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum and also on the subject of the EU, but we both agree that it's Cameron's fault for floating it from the get go. A monumental miscalculation on his part.

The dope that I read on here as that Cameron never thought he'd win last year, and so put it in the manifesto.

[TeaNoSugar]

Greg66 said:

turbobloke said:

Robert Peston tweet featured in The Guardian rolling updates this evening said:

Number of Labour joiners in past week is 60,000. Bloody hell. If most joining to defend Corbyn, scary for estranged MPs (& vice versa)

Vividly exposes a fundamental flaw in Miliband's £3 idea. No one - in particular Corbyn and Eagle - knows who these people will support. They could be Labour pro-Corbyn, Labour anti-Corbyn, or non-Labour pro-Corbyn spoilers. They are completely unknown yet they will have a say in who the next leader is. I suppose it makes a coup an even riskier proposition than it would normally be.

I've been reading these threads with interest for the past few weeks (referendum-related ones I mean), and really surprised at this number of new people joining the Labour party. Speaking about it with some colleagues at work today, I've been even more surprised to hear that 3 of them have joined the labour party this week, out of an office of 12 people, in order to support Jeremy Corbyn. All mid-20s, university educated civil engineers (in case thats of interest). They all said similar things when I asked them why; it's because they want protection of workers rights, want to keep services like the NHs and pensions and are willing to pay more tax to pay for it. One said he thinks the country really needs a left-wing party to oppose the Tories. Fair enough I guess, and obviously only a very small snapshot. Personally I really not sure what to make of it, other than that far from Corbyns support ebbing away (as some of the more centrist Labour MPs have been saying in the press this week) he might win the next party leadership contest in a similar fashion to last time.

And then what? Would it be the case where 80% of the PLP would abandon the party and JC and his supporters would just take over the whole party infrastructure, with a new "New Labour" party starting up from scratch??

For the record, I was a firm Remainer. I think whats happened is total lunacy, and I actually don't see a full "brexit" ever happening, unless the EU shange their policy on free movement of people. Also, I'm not much of a Corbyn fan personally - I think he's a decent MP with fairly extreme views, but on the leadership front he appears to be a bit lost, just a front-man with the real brains somewhere behind the scenes.

I'd just be interested to hear where people think the opposition parties will end up, say, 6-12 months down the line. As I said, I have no idea where this will end, but it's a bit worrying (to say the least). I never thought I'd say this but FFS lets have Theresa May in the hot-seat and get some sort of a team around her to steady this ship before we hit the rocks. Hopefully there'll be a credible opposition in place at some stage but who knows!!

[johnxjsc1985]

this is possibly the last and only remaining chance for the Far Left and the Unions to wield any kind of power and that is only if Labour are elected. it is why they are hanging on to Corbyn without him its over and a more centre left leader will emerge.
The PLP are I think willing to play the long game as each day he seems to bury himself further in the mire.
Are the 60,000 new members far left or is there another effort from more moderate labour voters to get their party back.

[Johnnytheboy]

johnxjsc1985 said:

this is possibly the last and only remaining chance for the Far Left and the Unions to wield any kind of power and that is only if Labour are elected. it is why they are hanging on to Corbyn without him its over and a more centre left leader will emerge.
The PLP are I think willing to play the long game as each day he seems to bury himself further in the mire.
Are the 60,000 new members far left or is there another effort from more moderate labour voters to get their party back.

The idea is to hang on unto the local parties can deselect the incumbent MPs, then the transformation will be complete.

I don't think they care about electability, and I don't quite understand why.

[don4l]

TeaNoSugar said:

I'd just be interested to hear where people think the opposition parties will end up, say, 6-12 months down the line. As I said, I have no idea where this will end, but it's a bit worrying (to say the least). I never thought I'd say this but FFS lets have Theresa May in the hot-seat and get some sort of a team around her to steady this ship before we hit the rocks. Hopefully there'll be a credible opposition in place at some stage but who knows!!

I don't think that anyone can see how this is going to pan out.

You correctly point out that Labour could split.

Equally the Conservatives could split.

If the Conservatives do split, will UKIP feature in the new party?

I'm 75% confident that Brexit will go ahead. Mainly because I think that there are going to be further big setbacks in the EU.

The fourth "final" Greek bail out is due in a few weeks. I think that will trigger more big events and it will become clear that the European Project is dead.

[IrateNinja]

TeaNoSugar said:

I've been reading these threads with interest for the past few weeks (referendum-related ones I mean), and really surprised at this number of new people joining the Labour party. Speaking about it with some colleagues at work today, I've been even more surprised to hear that 3 of them have joined the labour party this week, out of an office of 12 people, in order to support Jeremy Corbyn. All mid-20s, university educated civil engineers (in case thats of interest). They all said similar things when I asked them why; it's because they want protection of workers rights, want to keep services like the NHs and pensions and are willing to pay more tax to pay for it. One said he thinks the country really needs a left-wing party to oppose the Tories. Fair enough I guess, and obviously only a very small snapshot. Personally I really not sure what to make of it, other than that far from Corbyns support ebbing away (as some of the more centrist Labour MPs have been saying in the press this week) he might win the next party leadership contest in a similar fashion to last time.

And then what? Would it be the case where 80% of the PLP would abandon the party and JC and his supporters would just take over the whole party infrastructure, with a new "New Labour" party starting up from scratch??

For the record, I was a firm Remainer. I think whats happened is total lunacy, and I actually don't see a full "brexit" ever happening, unless the EU shange their policy on free movement of people. Also, I'm not much of a Corbyn fan personally - I think he's a decent MP with fairly extreme views, but on the leadership front he appears to be a bit lost, just a front-man with the real brains somewhere behind the scenes.

I'd just be interested to hear where people think the opposition parties will end up, say, 6-12 months down the line. As I said, I have no idea where this will end, but it's a bit worrying (to say the least). I never thought I'd say this but FFS lets have Theresa May in the hot-seat and get some sort of a team around her to steady this ship before we hit the rocks. Hopefully there'll be a credible opposition in place at some stage but who knows!!

I'm surprised at the number of people joining too, though I've done it as well! I've never voted Labour in my life (mid-20s, university educated mechanical engineer however!), and I'm simply frustrated at the series of (in my view) unelectable leaders of the Labour party.

[anonymous-user]

TeaNoSugar said:

I'd just be interested to hear where people think the opposition parties will end up, say, 6-12 months down the line.

IMO, one of two outcomes.
(a) same as today.
(b) 150+ Labour MPs split from the current Labour party and form a new party. Maybe with the LDs, more likely without. This is not without problems though: (i) Funding. The Unions bankroll Labour and won't bankroll these splitters; (ii) Grassroots support. The grassroots inexplicably support a leader who they must realise will never be PM. Grassroots support will be a real problem for the splitters; (iii) A name. Not quite as trivial as it sounds - what the hell do you call the new party (to highlight the importance of this there was a news story earlier in the week that the splitters were looking at whether they could claim a legal right to take the Labour name. One solution is that they represent the Nation, and are Socialist, so National Socialists - oops! And the Rebel Alliance has also already been taken).

[hidetheelephants]

Johnnytheboy said:

The idea is to hang on unto the local parties can deselect the incumbent MPs, then the transformation will be complete.

I don't think they care about electability, and I don't quite understand why.

It's like Militant Tendency all over again, only with even less self-awareness. Clueless berks haven't a scooby.

[P5BNij]

hidetheelephants said:

Johnnytheboy said:

The idea is to hang on unto the local parties can deselect the incumbent MPs, then the transformation will be complete.

I don't think they care about electability, and I don't quite understand why.

It's like Militant Tendency all over again, only with even less self-awareness. Clueless berks haven't a scooby.

They seem to honestly believe that their little corner of the world is more important than the world at large.

[The Don of Croy]

Derek Smith said:

...The most well-know tory leader has put up a big black...

Quoted for posterity, and the hope that a translation will arrive in due course.

As for Corbyn and his plans, Janet Daly writing in the Torygraph a while back was quite vitriolic in her assessment of the revolutionaries that surround him. Dangerous times...

[Johnnytheboy]

P5BNij said:

hidetheelephants said:

Johnnytheboy said:

The idea is to hang on unto the local parties can deselect the incumbent MPs, then the transformation will be complete.

I don't think they care about electability, and I don't quite understand why.

It's like Militant Tendency all over again, only with even less self-awareness. Clueless berks haven't a scooby.

They seem to honestly believe that their little corner of the world is more important than the world at large.

Proper left-wingers have some funny ideas. My favourite is false consciousness; this is the idea that the working classes don't support hard left parties, not because they don't agree with them but because they have been systematically misled by the establishment.

This gets round the awkward situation (prevalent in the post-referendum discussion) of having to avoid labelling the demographic that hard-left parties ostensibly exist to serve, as thick. Also gets round the glaringly obvious conclusion that the working classes have had a good think about it and simply don't agree with what left-wing thinkers think would be good for them.

In this case (as I perceive it) the idea is that once the entryists have gained control of the Labour Party, all they need do is use this apparatus to remove the scales from the proletariat's eyes, and they will rise up and overthrow their capitalist masters, instead of leasing Audis and buying starter homes.

It's no surprise that most of the hard left come from comfortable middle class backgrounds, is it?

[P5BNij]

Johnnytheboy said:

P5BNij said:

hidetheelephants said:

Johnnytheboy said:

The idea is to hang on unto the local parties can deselect the incumbent MPs, then the transformation will be complete.

I don't think they care about electability, and I don't quite understand why.

It's like Militant Tendency all over again, only with even less self-awareness. Clueless berks haven't a scooby.

They seem to honestly believe that their little corner of the world is more important than the world at large.

Proper left-wingers have some funny ideas. My favourite is false consciousness; this is the idea that the working classes don't support hard left parties, not because they don't agree with them but because they have been systematically misled by the establishment.

This gets round the awkward situation (prevalent in the post-referendum discussion) of having to avoid labelling the demographic that hard-left parties ostensibly exist to serve, as thick. Also gets round the glaringly obvious conclusion that the working classes have had a good think about it and simply don't agree with what left-wing thinkers think would be good for them.

In this case (as I perceive it) the idea is that once the entryists have gained control of the Labour Party, all they need do is use this apparatus to remove the scales from the proletariat's eyes, and they will rise up and overthrow their capitalist masters, instead of leasing Audis and buying starter homes.

It's no surprise that most of the hard left come from comfortable middle class backgrounds, is it?

I've worked alongside a few like that in the past, no amount of reasoned debate or opposite opinion is allowed to get past their blinkered, entrenched views. I think it comes from either a very deeply held insecurity or just sheer 'not listening, blah, blah, blah' arrogance. I dare say most if not all of them wouldn't last more than five minutes in any job that the working class they claim to represent would choose or have to do.

Edited by P5BNij on Friday 1st July 14:20

Edited by P5BNij on Friday 1st July 14:21

[MarshPhantom]

Johnnytheboy said:

P5BNij said:

hidetheelephants said:

Johnnytheboy said:

The idea is to hang on unto the local parties can deselect the incumbent MPs, then the transformation will be complete.

I don't think they care about electability, and I don't quite understand why.

It's like Militant Tendency all over again, only with even less self-awareness. Clueless berks haven't a scooby.

They seem to honestly believe that their little corner of the world is more important than the world at large.

Proper left-wingers have some funny ideas. My favourite is false consciousness; this is the idea that the working classes don't support hard left parties, not because they don't agree with them but because they have been systematically misled by the establishment.

This gets round the awkward situation (prevalent in the post-referendum discussion) of having to avoid labelling the demographic that hard-left parties ostensibly exist to serve, as thick. Also gets round the glaringly obvious conclusion that the working classes have had a good think about it and simply don't agree with what left-wing thinkers think would be good for them.

In this case (as I perceive it) the idea is that once the entryists have gained control of the Labour Party, all they need do is use this apparatus to remove the scales from the proletariat's eyes, and they will rise up and overthrow their capitalist masters, instead of leasing Audis and buying starter homes.

It's no surprise that most of the hard left come from comfortable middle class backgrounds, is it?

Much of Europe/Scandinavia is a lot more left wing than the UK. Would you say it's because they're all stupid?

[turbobloke]

MarshPhantom said:

Johnnytheboy said:

P5BNij said:

hidetheelephants said:

Johnnytheboy said:

The idea is to hang on unto the local parties can deselect the incumbent MPs, then the transformation will be complete.

I don't think they care about electability, and I don't quite understand why.

It's like Militant Tendency all over again, only with even less self-awareness. Clueless berks haven't a scooby.

They seem to honestly believe that their little corner of the world is more important than the world at large.

Proper left-wingers have some funny ideas. My favourite is false consciousness; this is the idea that the working classes don't support hard left parties, not because they don't agree with them but because they have been systematically misled by the establishment.

This gets round the awkward situation (prevalent in the post-referendum discussion) of having to avoid labelling the demographic that hard-left parties ostensibly exist to serve, as thick. Also gets round the glaringly obvious conclusion that the working classes have had a good think about it and simply don't agree with what left-wing thinkers think would be good for them.

In this case (as I perceive it) the idea is that once the entryists have gained control of the Labour Party, all they need do is use this apparatus to remove the scales from the proletariat's eyes, and they will rise up and overthrow their capitalist masters, instead of leasing Audis and buying starter homes.

It's no surprise that most of the hard left come from comfortable middle class backgrounds, is it?

Much of Europe/Scandinavia is a lot more left wing than the UK. Would you say it's because they're all stupid?

The discussion you replied to mentioned hard-left not mainstream Europe-left or Scandinavia-left.

As to the question, is any of this about stupidity / intelligence or length of participation in broadly leftist educational indoctrination for example?