Jeremy Corbyn

[Stickyfinger]

I think Erdogan is the most worrying leader in the area. He is playing hard ball with NATO/the USA by using his "relationship" with Russia, the attitude to the Kurds and thus ISIS. All very very messy and some really fked-up people involved.

[technodup]

drainbrain said:

technodup said:

…. I will never understand no choice being better than lots of choice. Although clearly some find making a choice quite the challenge….

Indeed they do…

http://news.sky.com/story/x-10542633

This is better than nationalisation?

Seriously?

Yes. 100% yes.

For most of us normal functioning adults that is. Willing to spend 15mins a year seeing if there's a better deal available to save us money.

Or we can go back to the days of British Telecom where you would wait weeks to be connected, you'd have a rotary dial phone in any colour as long as it was black. I shudder to think where some of our services would be if it wasn't for competition constantly improving them.

A few years ago I was paying close on £50/m for my mobile. It's now £12 for a better service. The idea that a government monopoly would improve the service or the price at anywhere near the same rate is fking mental.

It's fair enough to make the point that public ownership is more just (although I'd still disagree) but to claim it in itself will improve services is pish.

You don't need to look far to see government can't run big projects. Heathrow R3, Edinburgh Trams, NHS IT, HS2, Channel Tunnel, Scottish Parliament, London 2012, all massively over budget and/or massively over time. At our cost.

They should do as little as possible imo. Defend us and look after the disabled and old people. That'd do me.

[98elise]

C

technodup said:

drainbrain said:

technodup said:

…. I will never understand no choice being better than lots of choice. Although clearly some find making a choice quite the challenge….

Indeed they do…

http://news.sky.com/story/x-10542633

This is better than nationalisation?

Seriously?

Yes. 100% yes.

For most of us normal functioning adults that is. Willing to spend 15mins a year seeing if there's a better deal available to save us money.

Or we can go back to the days of British Telecom where you would wait weeks to be connected, you'd have a rotary dial phone in any colour as long as it was black. I shudder to think where some of our services would be if it wasn't for competition constantly improving them.

A few years ago I was paying close on £50/m for my mobile. It's now £12 for a better service. The idea that a government monopoly would improve the service or the price at anywhere near the same rate is fking mental.

It's fair enough to make the point that public ownership is more just (although I'd still disagree) but to claim it in itself will improve services is pish.

You don't need to look far to see government can't run big projects. Heathrow R3, Edinburgh Trams, NHS IT, HS2, Channel Tunnel, Scottish Parliament, London 2012, all massively over budget and/or massively over time. At our cost.

They should do as little as possible imo. Defend us and look after the disabled and old people. That'd do me.

Agreed.

If you were looking to modernise, streamline, or improve any industry the last thing on your mind would be to get a bunch of politicians and civil servants in to run the show!

[drainbrain]

technodup said:

es. 100% yes.

For most of us normal functioning adults that is. Willing to spend 15mins a year seeing if there's a better deal available to save us money.

Or we can go back to the days of British Telecom where you would wait weeks to be connected, you'd have a rotary dial phone in any colour as long as it was black. I shudder to think where some of our services would be if it wasn't for competition constantly improving them.

A few years ago I was paying close on £50/m for my mobile. It's now £12 for a better service. The idea that a government monopoly would improve the service or the price at anywhere near the same rate is fking mental.

It's fair enough to make the point that public ownership is more just (although I'd still disagree) but to claim it in itself will improve services is pish.

You don't need to look far to see government can't run big projects. Heathrow R3, Edinburgh Trams, NHS IT, HS2, Channel Tunnel, Scottish Parliament, London 2012, all massively over budget and/or massively over time. At our cost.

They should do as little as possible imo. Defend us and look after the disabled and old people. That'd do me.

There's so much nonsense in that reply that it's beyond my interest to reply to it.

I'll reply a bit.

How does this regular largely under informed and obfuscated relentless searching for a better price for everything equate to a better service? And how anyway- other than by paying a fee to a decent business consultant - do you determine in 15 minutes or even 15 hours where the best price is, never mind a dozen different aspects of service? What is it you don't understand about the stupidity of penalising customer loyalty? Or why it's unhealthy to promote a system that does so?

If you were in business you'd realise that the opposite of what you've said is the case re BT. In these times of deregulation it DOES take weeks to get a basic line, via a universally reviled nightmare called Openreach. You find them satisfactory, do you? But in nationalised days it didn't. And have you ever tried deciphering a business contract with a deregulated phone provider? Orange or EE or whatever they're called this week? In my experience it can only be done under legal supervision or you'll find you've been done up like a kipper. And what business wants to be continually chopping and changing its service provider rather than building a relationship with them? And how do you do that if loyalty - sticking to one - is to be punished? All this turmoil of tens of millions of individuals and business wriggling around chopping and changing services requires administered. Which costs, big time. Which cost then reduces allocation of expenditure to service provision etc etc. And see that black rotary dialled phone? It worked. Forever if it wasn't abused. But you save money by spending on endless replacements, don't you? If there were enough stupid people to create a demand for it, why couldn't a nationalised comms company run a "change your phone twice a year" con?

What about water? How much cheaper are you finding that since it became a private enterprise? Do you feel private enterprise has improved the product much?

As to "running big projects" which even of the ones you mentioned, didn't sustain any damage to them from outsourcing? You think PFI projects are a success? Or cheap (you seem to like cheap) to the taxpayer? And of course governments "run" matters anyway. Via governance through regulation. And what happens if deregulated businesses aren't supervised? lol. Are you kidding? You must be the only person in the country who doesn't think all these utility companies (and others) need far heavier regulation because of their basic ineptitude and low moral understandings. And then, of course, when the level of regulation needed becomes heavy enough, it dawns that these mad dogs aren't ever going to be brought to heel so the governance that's regulating them may as well do the last part again and take them over.

Would you deregulate policing? Or disband NHS? Or the justice system? Or state education and state housing? Really? Why not? Because they're too important to maintain at an acceptable level for everyone. Well utilities and transport are important too. Housing? Pah! Even deposits in private sector residential have to be regulated because the industry itself can't deal with them responsibly. What about commercial property factoring versus housing associations? Better service? Cheaper? Or transport? You're from Glasgow. Remember GCT? You seriously think the havoc and inefficiency of privatised 'public' transport in Glasgow is an improvement in service on Glasgow Corporation Transport? Aye mate. Whatever.

I'm beginning to think the left's gathering up a monopoly on intellect. It's probably anyway going to be the only thing left TO vote for following the coming-round-the-corner global financial firestorm which'll be on us well before the damage from the last one's sorted out. And that one was largely caused by "light touch" largely unregulated capitalism running amok.

Edited by drainbrain on Friday 19th August 18:53

[Gargamel]

I would disband the NHS ... yes

A&E retained.

Everything else. Health insurance. Along with abolishing NI and the state pension.

[drainbrain]

98elise said:

Agreed.

If you were looking to modernise, streamline, or improve any industry the last thing on your mind would be to get a bunch of politicians and civil servants in to run the show!

Do you think nationalised industries are operated by politicians or that private enterprise isn't run by them via regulation?

What you may be struggling to understand is that modernised nationalised industries could well be run by very able people. Do you think they'd suddenly become UN-able because the enterprises they were running were nationalised rather than privatised?

[drainbrain]

Gargamel said:

I would disband the NHS ... yes

A&E retained.

Everything else. Health insurance. Along with abolishing NI and the state pension.

So no more Headley Court or Sick Children's Hospital (other than for insured soldiers and parents with family cover).

Nice.

[Sway]

drainbrain said:

Gargamel said:

I would disband the NHS ... yes

A&E retained.

Everything else. Health insurance. Along with abolishing NI and the state pension.

So no more Headley Court or Sick Children's Hospital (other than for insured soldiers and parents with family cover).

Nice.

That doesn't have to be the only approach to an insurance funded private health care provision model. Set fixed price premiums with no weighting on prior history, then get competition to create the service and results that brings the public to select them.

Henry Ford often said his customers wanted 'a faster, more reliable, horse'. Most people don't consider the really clever bit about his design - that it cost the same or less as a horse to buy and run. That's what enabled the masses to move to mechanised transport. It also kick started a revolution in personal mobility.

Set the premium at the average amount of income tax/NI paid into the NHS. Drop IT/NI by an equivalent amount. Emergency care funded regardless, subsidised premiums obtained with means testing for income support. Watch the providers bend over backwards to become the 'provider of choice'.

[ThunderGuts]

Gargamel said:

I would disband the NHS ... yes

A&E retained.

Everything else. Health insurance. Along with abolishing NI and the state pension.

From a cost perspective, to get a NHS which is actually efficient, you'd want to scrap it all and start again. From a budgetary perspective it's becoming the Cuckoo in the nest.

[davepoth]

Gargamel said:

I would disband the NHS ... yes

A&E retained.

Everything else. Health insurance. Along with abolishing NI and the state pension.

Because that works so well in the USA, doesn't it?

The saying is "prevention is better than cure". You do not want A&E to be the only place people can access medical care, trust me.

[Gargamel]

drainbrain said:

So no more Headley Court or Sick Children's Hospital (other than for insured soldiers and parents with family cover).

Nice.

There is a model whereby say - the employer - in the case the army, decides to pay for Headley Court.

Or perhaps the parents of sick children, have insurance which covers them.

The fact is the NHS cannot buy effectively, is routinely stiched up on every service and every drug, there is no REAL incentive to reduce cost since the state will ultimately pay.

Too many vested interests. I would retain central training contracts for Doctors/Nurses, effectively a license to operate. Then have a central regulator/inspectorate. Then let the Insurance companies worry about delivery. Perhaps the cottage hospitals in the towns and county hospitals in the cities could be restored and then the specialist units devolved to private care providers.

We all know that specialism leads to efficiency and better outcomes, so why does the NHS try to do everything ?

Finally how long can the charade that the only answer to the problems of the NHS being yet more money be continued.

[italianjob1275]

Well I hope you've all got your Jeremy Corbyn emojis!

[Vaud]

I was reminded today of this satire:

http://scarfolk.blogspot.co.uk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarfolk

A town that never moved past 1976 with an authoritarian regime and [seemingly] 1970s extremism.

In the best T May voice, "REMIND YOU OF ANYONE?"

[technodup]

drainbrain said:

How does this regular largely under informed and obfuscated relentless searching for a better price for everything equate to a better service?

Being under informed is the fault of one person. The one who chooses to be under informed. The relevant information is freely available.

Better price doesn't equate to better service, obviously. That is a value decision the consumer is free to make. In my world at least.

drainbrain said:

And see that black rotary dialled phone? It worked. Forever if it wasn't abused.

If we took that approach to everything we'd never progress anywhere. We wouldn't be having this discussion, after all phones work perfectly well, who needs internet?

drainbrain said:

And of course governments "run" matters anyway. Via governance through regulation.

Unfortunately.

drainbrain said:

You must be the only person in the country who doesn't think all these utility companies (and others) need far heavier regulation because of their basic ineptitude and low moral understandings.

Of course politicians and civil servants are well known for their aptitude and morals... never any conflicts of interest, never any backhanders, never any political skullduggery... I'd argue the profit motive keeps it honest.

drainbrain said:

Would you deregulate policing? Or disband NHS? Or the justice system? Or state education and state housing?

No, yes, no, maybe and yes. If government created a basic social framework and taxed us accordingly we would be free to make our own decisions as to how to educate our children, house ourselves and so on. I cannot accept that some Westminster 'elite' are better placed to spend my money than I am.

drainbrain said:

You seriously think the havoc and inefficiency of privatised 'public' transport in Glasgow is an improvement in service on Glasgow Corporation Transport? Aye mate. Whatever.

Between our huge rail network, subway and myriad bus routes I think we're probably better than most cities tbh. But I'm not a peasant so have little first hand experience.

drainbrain said:

I'm beginning to think the left's gathering up a monopoly on intellect.

It's precisely that sort of attitude that prevents the left from getting anywhere. Keep it up.

[hornetrider]

Is this the death of him? NATO needs to pack up and go home?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/19/jeremy-...

[768]

No chance. Not before it's the death of Labour.

[D-Angle]

hornetrider said:

Is this the death of him? NATO needs to pack up and go home?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/19/jeremy-...

A lot of people are barely aware of NATO in the post-cold war world. If anything it might make some people learn more about it. But the true believers will keep on believing, anyone left at this point has well and truly drunk the Kool-Aid. If Labour's polling remains as it is, those people are going to become an absolute mob when the shock hits them that they didn't win power in 2020.

As my dad used to say, "Those who know the least, know it the loudest."

[Cobnapint]

I tell you, he's working for the Russkies.

[Halb]

He and the DOn should swap notes.

[Johnnytheboy]

D-Angle said:

If Labour's polling remains as it is, those people are going to become an absolute mob when the shock hits them that they didn't win power in 2020.

That's the thing: I don't think any of the True Believers care if he wins general elections, I don't think being in power is important to them.

Or, more worryingly, they don't think elections are the best route to power.