Are men afraid of transgender women?

[p2c]

it is no longer classified as a psychiatric disorder. Many far more qualified psychiatrists than your McHugh came to that conclusion in DSM 5

dsm 5 said:

DSM-5 aims to avoid stigma and ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a different gender than their assigned gender. It replaces the diagnostic name “gender identity disorder” with “gender dysphoria,” as well as makes other important clarifications in the criteria. It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Psychiatrists/Practice/DSM/APA_DSM-5-Gender-Dysphoria.pdf

[Fishtigua]

AJS- said:

Thing is someone earlier flippantly mentioned sex change kidnapping as though it was some crazy fantasy of the far right.

Yes, and FOX NEWS thinks that big green lizards rule the land.

That's true innit?

[p2c]

AJS- said:

Thing is someone earlier flippantly mentioned sex change kidnapping as though it was some crazy fantasy of the far right, yet in those terms is it really so far fetched that we could get to a situation where parents come under enormous pressure to agree to this or face being labelled as abusers with all that that entails.

I wonder where the people who removed foster children from UKIP supporters would stand on such an issue? And how far you would trust them in such circumstances?

lets put that back into contex

p2c said:

AJS- said:

How far does this deference go?

Let's consider a situation where a trans teacher believes he sees trans signs in a 10 year old boy, explains transgenderism to the child and recommends HRT to delay puberty. A psychologist initially agrees that this now very confused child may be trans. The parents disagree. Must the parents then take on the "medical experts" to prevent this intervention in to the adolescence of what they believe to be a perfectly normal and happy child's development?

Worse still might those parents be cowed by the "experts" and agree to this extraordinary treatment?

Can anyone really expect that this process won't in itself cause huge confusion and harm to the child?

Thats pretty far out the on the loon scale and is basically portraying it as the forced sex change child snatchers. There is no chance of a minor getting help with gender dysphoria without parental support, and even with parental support there would be no chance of getting to the point of blockers even, let alone hormones if the child is being coerced. As it stands it is hard enough to get to that point if everyone is on board with the process, let alone keeping up the coercion for a number of years and throughout early adolescence.

When it comes to trans children there are two very real scenarios.

Trans children in un-supportive homes or even ones they perceive to be, suppress their gender identity issues, at best this leads to a degree of un-happyness and distress and secretive in the closet behavior (no pun intended). At worst your into the realms of self harm and suicide. Suicide attempts among the trans community is 10 times that of the non trans at around 50% and suicidal ideation is higher still and i have seen figures quoted at 80%

In an open and supported family there is plenty of evidence of improved outcomes, it is still hard for the trans child to get medical intervention due to all the checks and balances in place to weed out the part timers and those in a phase. It is also still hard for them as the wider society is still incredibly prejudiced and bigoted against them, but at least they have a safe place and their mums/dads shoulder to cry on when things get too much. Sadly even that sometimes is still not enough.

i'll repeat the link here to the WPATH standards of care for the treatment of transgender persons, these standards are accepted universally in the western world as the basis for transgender treatment programs, including our NHS and it includes what is expected when treating children.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Stan...

Unfortunately i very much doubt anyone will actually read it.

Parents getting help for the child's gender non conformity wont be pres-ganged into anything. there is no pressure social or otherwise for a child to transition, FFS its about the hardest thing anyone can do with their life, the pressure not to even admit to the feelings is immense.

[otolith]

Personally, I don't see this as a moral or political issue, purely a medical one. The objective has to be the best possible outcome for the patient. Dogmatic political or religious positions are irrelevant.

[AJS-]

Not sure where you got "beat it out of them with straps and rods" from, Fishtigua.


A question: why do you think there is a prejudice against transgender people in the first place?

[Fishtigua]

otolith said:

The objective has to be the best possible outcome for the patient. Dogmatic political or religious positions are irrelevant.

Even back on Page 2 of this debate, I posted an article on Muslim's take on this.

I can't rememeber just how much misunderstanding has passed by since Islam has been more accepting than PH?

[AJS-]

otolith said:

Personally, I don't see this as a moral or political issue, purely a medical one. The objective has to be the best possible outcome for the patient. Dogmatic political or religious positions are irrelevant.

In other words butt out and leave it to the experts.

I don't see how there can not be a moral aspect to interfering with the development of a physically healthy child. But you are free to disagree.

[Fishtigua]

AJS- said:

In other words butt out and leave it to the experts.

I don't see how there can not be a moral aspect to interfering with the development of a physically healthy child. But you are free to disagree.

Gosh!

Perfect body, perfect mind. Any child that may differ from the perfect path?

What? Re-education camps? Or something a tad more clinical?

[AJS-]

What are you on about?

I'd like to think it was a fairly civil discussion even if we clearly disagree.

Are you asking me what I do think?

[Fishtigua]

Ooh, if you're wondering, there's a lovely old boy on the Classic Car thread who is openly Bi. He has been married but also lived with a chap.

For Christ sake, don't ask him any engineering handle angles.

[p2c]

AJS- said:

In other words butt out and leave it to the experts.

I don't see how there can not be a moral aspect to interfering with the development of a physically healthy child. But you are free to disagree.

But your ignoring the mind. The mind is at odds with that "healthy" body so is it really that healthy, its hormones are like poison to the mind/brain, but then we already know form this mornings thought experiment your vanity values a perfect body over identity suicide, you would rather not be yourself, kill your very identity than take a knife to a body

[AJS-]

I'm not ignoring the mind. I'm saying that I suspect it's far more likely to change and adapt to physical reality than vice versa. I can also see great potential for long term harm to the mind resulting from this sort of intervention.

I don't really see it as vanity and if you could see my perfect male body I think you would agree that I am not vain.

I do though think that the mind is far more adaptable than the body and I can't possibly imagine anything good coming of replacing functioning body parts with mechanical approximations.

[AJS-]

p2c said:

Parents getting help for the child's gender non conformity wont be pres-ganged into anything. there is no pressure social or otherwise for a child to transition, FFS its about the hardest thing anyone can do with their life, the pressure not to even admit to the feelings is immense.

There is however this insidious point at the heart of it that both you and otolith believe parents blocking this treatment amounts to child abuse. Where does that end? Do you leave the child with 'abusive' parents or take them into care where they will get the treatment you believe they need?

It's no moot point. As you pointed out regarding the WPATH SOC parental consent is required however if witholding this consent amounts to abuse where does that leave us?

[davepoth]

AJS- said:

I'm not ignoring the mind. I'm saying that I suspect it's far more likely to change and adapt to physical reality than vice versa.

And then you would be wrong. It's not a mental illness. Read some things written by doctors.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Page...

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

Would you suggest to a gay person that they should "think themselves straight"?

[AJS-]

I don't see how a couple of pamphlets prove me wrong?


Would I advise a gay person anything? What specifically did he ask me for advice on?

[davepoth]

AJS- said:

I don't see how a couple of pamphlets prove me wrong?

Ah, you're one of those.

[AJS-]

One of what exactly?

[otolith]

AJS- said:

There is however this insidious point at the heart of it that both you and otolith believe parents blocking this treatment amounts to child abuse. Where does that end? Do you leave the child with 'abusive' parents or take them into care where they will get the treatment you believe they need?

It's no moot point. As you pointed out regarding the WPATH SOC parental consent is required however if witholding this consent amounts to abuse where does that leave us?

Point of order - I said that attempting to bully the child normal and using nothing but Christian counsellors was abuse. Whether to consent to any sort of treatment is a more nuanced decision, however it should always be the child's best interests at heart and not wishful thinking or bigotry. The situation is what it is.

[p2c]

AJS- said:

I'm not ignoring the mind. I'm saying that I suspect it's far more likely to change and adapt to physical reality than vice versa. I can also see great potential for long term harm to the mind resulting from this sort of intervention.

I don't really see it as vanity and if you could see my perfect male body I think you would agree that I am not vain.

I do though think that the mind is far more adaptable than the body and I can't possibly imagine anything good coming of replacing functioning body parts with mechanical approximations.

There is another case of misunderstanding or willful ignorance, its something else you could learn from reading the WPATH SOC as they also mention this and again top psychologists in the world specializing in GD consider trying to change to mind to match the body as ineffective and unethical, it has been tried and failed.

Maybe if that download and brain reprogram were possible they could have another go, but i have seen many TG folk truthfully answer the question of "would you go back and be born CIS if you could" with the answer. "No, being trans may be ste but being CIS i wouldn't be me". To understand that though you first need to grasp the concept of self identity as being separate from your physical identity and probably spent a long time in introspective thought, something trans people do a lot of and your willingness to commit identity suicide indicates you do not understand.

wpath SOC said:

Treatment aimed at trying to change a person’s gender identity and lived gender expression to
become more congruent with sex assigned at birth has been attempted in the past (Gelder &
Marks, 1969; Greenson, 1964), yet without success, particularly in the long-term (Cohen-Kettenis
& Kuiper, 1984; Pauly, 1965). Such treatment is no longer considered ethical.

So why you persist in the assertion that the current method of treatment is wrong i am not sure. I can understand it from someone who has no knowledge or experience, but you have been provided with the information directly from the standards of care accepted by medical professionals as the way to do it, yet you deny that these top professionals know what they are doing. But you offer up no credible alternatives or a willingness to learn or be open minded.

As for the state intervening in the care of a child with GD, I can't see it happening any time soon, should it, i don't know, but i do hope that a child in such distress as to self harming and being suicidal could receive some sort of support from the medical profession even against parental wishes, if only to talk them down from such behavior and support until they are old enough to make their own decisions. Would the state prosecute the parents for neglect/abuse, I doubt it, too hard to prove unless there is physical violence involved. Bottom line as i see it though would be the child would not be separated from a parent due to GD but more likely due to behavior such that it is a case of the child is not being taken care of such that their well-being is in jeopardy. If the underlying cause is GD or some other problem would be irrelevant. If it is GD then the child would have to fight on their own within the "system" to obtain treatment for it as its not easy with supportive parents acting as advocates let alone a child on their own in foster care.

[Fishtigua]

AJS- said:

I don't see how a couple of pamphlets prove me wrong?


Would I advise a gay person anything? What specifically did he ask me for advice on?

I wouldn't let you advise an airpump fill of a tyre, you tend to have much more overfill than is healthy.