Are men afraid of transgender women?

[Some Gump]

HarryW said:

Christ on a bike, how the fk have we come from blokes worrying about trapping a sex swap on a date to worrying about 3 year old girl asking about growing a beard...........PH never ceases to amaze me.

It's PH. It's an "-ism" or "-ist" thread. As usual, mentallists on both sides have taken over and are trying to win an argument on the internet. I have no idea who is winning, but my money is on Taboola.

[Taboola]

Some Gump said:

HarryW said:

Christ on a bike, how the fk have we come from blokes worrying about trapping a sex swap on a date to worrying about 3 year old girl asking about growing a beard...........PH never ceases to amaze me.

It's PH. It's an "-ism" or "-ist" thread. As usual, mentallists on both sides have taken over and are trying to win an argument on the internet. I have no idea who is winning, but my money is on Taboola.

Cool, Do i get to ride the pony now?

Edited by Taboola on Tuesday 25th August 00:23

[Some Gump]

Taboola said:

Cool, Do i get to ride the pony now?

Edited by Taboola on Tuesday 25th August 00:23

You can ride anything you like if you can make that sodding a3 go away...

[davepoth]

p2c said:

davepoth said:

p2c's comment above might have made it sound a little more dramatic than it probably is. At best, the flag is very small and probably barely yellow, but the slight possibility should at least be borne in mind.

Ok, I apologize for being a drama queen, i came from a position of having waved the yellow flag, the yellow one is a pretty easy flag to ignore and dismiss though.

Easy to ignore maybe, but that's not to say it should be.

[anonymous-user]

Some Gump said:

HarryW said:

Christ on a bike, how the fk have we come from blokes worrying about trapping a sex swap on a date to worrying about 3 year old girl asking about growing a beard...........PH never ceases to amaze me.

It's PH. It's an "-ism" or "-ist" thread. As usual, mentallists on both sides have taken over and are trying to win an argument on the internet. I have no idea who is winning, but my money is on Taboola.

This.

Opinion no longer seems to be a thing. It's all "I'm right!", "No I'm right and you're a homophobe", "Well I'm right and you're WACIST!"

A race to be the most offended, it appears.

[AJS-]

p2c said:

Its not that conversion therapy has been written off without consideration. They have been trying it for years for all LGBT "issues", they started off with electric shocks to testicles, ice pick lobotomies etc. Once that was deemed torture and inhumane they were restricted to psychological therapy with shame and aversion techniques. All it does is make people more depressed and suicidal. It is so bad that its not just against psychological best practice it has actually been made illegal for minors in many US states and that ban is expanding.

This seems like a very false choice. Behavioural medicine has moved on quite a bit since torture and shame in other areas, why not this one?

Thanks for the tip. She wanted to go and build a snowman the other day when it was 33C outside, and she also proudly told me she was a rabbit - not for the first time. Even got some ears. Weather and species dysphoria too? Or an ordinary 3 year old with a very limited grasp of reality? That sort of reaction reinforces my impression that this is something people are in favour of and actively looking for. Though I realise you weren't suggesting I rush her to the nearest gender clinic, any real reaction at all would seem to be too much.

Were I to rush in and suggest she try wearing boys clothes, tell he she can have a beard if she wants one and wholeheartedly start treating her as a boy, who knows what effects this might have?

What sort of environment do you presume I and my views create?


I have a more general interest (which you can see on other threads) in the way people seem to attach far too much certainty to things which appear to be 'proven by science' when there are big gaping holes in the original research. There seems to be a tendency for subsequent studies to confirm the original and 'fashions' form quite quickly and become firmly accepted as conventional wisdom. And I'm stubborn as all hell, and quite enjoy arguing if it's friendly and informative, which I think this thread mostly has been.

I also dislike the way that such debate is often shut down by shrill cries of -phobia or hate crimes, or ridiculed as being some antiquated religious notion at odds with the expansive and certain knowledge we have of it now, when neither is necessarily the case.


otolith
I don't remember doubting that I was a boy, and 30 years after the fact I couldn't possibly recall with any accuracy why I didn't. I don't think it even occured to me, it was just a fact of life. An unalterable physical reality.

Treating the brain as such an unalterable fact appears rather false. The brain does adapt to all kinds of changes throughout our lives, apparently in response to experience. It doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that it could adapt to such an immutable fact as physical birth gender. I also don't see how encouraging a child to spend it's formative years denying this reality can be expected not to have an impact on the development of the brain which will reinforce itself.


It's not about wishing people were different in themselves, it's more about how you approach a problem.

Edited by AJS- on Tuesday 25th August 04:08

[AJS-]

Couple of questions then.

Would you support someone who felt they identified with another race? I know this came up with Rachel Dolezal in the US, and I've read a couple of articles simply dismissing her as a fraud. That may well be true for that case but can you identify as a different race? Could and should medicine be used to change skin colour and other physical characteristics of a white man who identifies as Chinese?


Why do you imagine that society holds negative views of transgender people? Although some groups are more tolerant than others, it does seem to be generally deemed a negative across most major cultures. Why?

[ofcorsa]

All relationships are ultimately based on trust, To start a relationship based on position of dishonesty seems to doom it from the start. Most humans enter a relationship with the goal of reproduction if that isn't possible surely its an important point to discus with your partner?

[AJS-]

One more point. While you say that hormone treatment to delay puberty can be stopped and puberty can "continue as normal" that doesn't always seem to be the case from my reading on it.

They are designed for other conditions such as precocious (early) puberty, or prostate cancer.

It seems to be strongly associated with bone problems and sterilization. I.e. if the child does change their mind and revert to their "birth gender" then they will not be able to have biological children. Ever.

This is only from some very preliminary reading on this, but I would be interested to hear the response? Is this exxagerated? Acceptable risk? Still better than the alternative of depression (also a side effect of Lupron) and stigma?

[p2c]

AJS- said:

p2c said:

Its not that conversion therapy has been written off without consideration. They have been trying it for years for all LGBT "issues", they started off with electric shocks to testicles, ice pick lobotomies etc. Once that was deemed torture and inhumane they were restricted to psychological therapy with shame and aversion techniques. All it does is make people more depressed and suicidal. It is so bad that its not just against psychological best practice it has actually been made illegal for minors in many US states and that ban is expanding.

This seems like a very false choice. Behavioural medicine has moved on quite a bit since torture and shame in other areas, why not this one?

Perhaps you could give us better examples of the types of therapy that could be used to help trans people accept themselves. I suspect however we will find that these modern methods are already used in the treatment of gender dysphoria. It is after all still a psychiatric diagnosis, treatment is psychiatrist led. Surgical transition is also not the default outcome, far from it. Many people seeking treatment do find a self acceptance that is short of the OR. For some it it is accepting gender variance in private, for others its social transition without surgery, but for some there are greater needs. But accepting yourself can only take you as far as accepting your own identity rather than fitting that identity into someone else's standard, so those modern techniques take them as far as beating the internalized transphobia and accepting their transgender identity but cannot change that identity.

I also don't accept that nothing is being done or there is no will to challenge the current treatment methods, Indeed you posted up Dr McHuge, there is an incredibly powerful and well funded conservative sector in the US which consistently try to oppose the current treatments and acceptance, but they haven't come up with anything as a viable alternative that stands up to even amateur cross examination

AJS- said:

Thanks for the tip. She wanted to go and build a snowman the other day when it was 33C outside, and she also proudly told me she was a rabbit - not for the first time. Even got some ears. Weather and species dysphoria too? Or an ordinary 3 year old with a very limited grasp of reality? That sort of reaction reinforces my impression that this is something people are in favour of and actively looking for. Though I realise you weren't suggesting I rush her to the nearest gender clinic, any real reaction at all would seem to be too much.

Were I to rush in and suggest she try wearing boys clothes, tell he she can have a beard if she wants one and wholeheartedly start treating her as a boy, who knows what effects this might have?

What sort of environment do you presume I and my views create?

I am not sure that species and weather dysporia you describe cause the same long-term distress that gender dysphoria does. I agree that from what you describe it is nothing to worry about and is the very limited grasp of reality. Where i have cautioned is IF that limited grasp of reality develops into dysphoria then you are moving into the realms of a very fragile and venerable child who has a far better grasp of reality than you give them credit for. If that reality they are grasping is one where gender non conformity is criticized or not accepted then the smallest of things will condition the child to go into hiding. I am in no way, and it seems can not put enough caveats in here to stop the outcries, saying you should treat her as trans or that she is, or encourage her to be so, although i firmly believe as much as you cant "straighten" trans you equally can't "turn" someone trans. So dress her up as an old fart if you want, put shaving foam on her face when she is standing next to you shaving and being inquisitive, it will be fun father daughter bonding, But if its persistent tantrum time when the flannel comes out or the clothes go back in the box and its not just because play time is over then don't go looking for it but take a step back and keep an open mind.

AJS- said:

I have a more general interest (which you can see on other threads) in the way people seem to attach far too much certainty to things which appear to be 'proven by science' when there are big gaping holes in the original research. There seems to be a tendency for subsequent studies to confirm the original and 'fashions' form quite quickly and become firmly accepted as conventional wisdom. And I'm stubborn as all hell, and quite enjoy arguing if it's friendly and informative, which I think this thread mostly has been.

I also dislike the way that such debate is often shut down by shrill cries of -phobia or hate crimes, or ridiculed as being some antiquated religious notion at odds with the expansive and certain knowledge we have of it now, when neither is necessarily the case.

I don't disagree with you here and i hope we have had a good debate and i have brought information to the table that has cause a pause for thought and maybe adjustment in view, although i would like to have seen more evidence of your big gaping holes in the proven science.

I also don't think there are questions on the "proven science" validity, there have been alternative treatments tried and failed, there is many multiple successes of the current methods. It's not the same as the climate change debate where we only have one world and no final success/failure result to rely on. If we could put thousands of worlds in a box and conduct accelerated time experiments on them, then we could know the result and our effect on climate change, but we don't we only have consensus of opinion which i agree can often be wrong, Likewise with butter and wine that we have all been told is bad and now good for us, when we were told it was bad we had no success results that could be attributed to the change in diet. But we have experimented on 1000's of trans people, some had spikes up their nose with disaster as an outcome, but we have 1000's of positive outcomes from the current treatment plans. They are not perfect and society's phobias and intolerance still makes it hard but we have verifiable end results with improvements in quality of life. Even if the males of PH insist that the woman they were beating off over 5 seconds before they found out they were trans, still looks like a man.

[p2c]

AJS- said:

One more point. While you say that hormone treatment to delay puberty can be stopped and puberty can "continue as normal" that doesn't always seem to be the case from my reading on it.

They are designed for other conditions such as precocious (early) puberty, or prostate cancer.

It seems to be strongly associated with bone problems and sterilization. I.e. if the child does change their mind and revert to their "birth gender" then they will not be able to have biological children. Ever.

This is only from some very preliminary reading on this, but I would be interested to hear the response? Is this exxagerated? Acceptable risk? Still better than the alternative of depression (also a side effect of Lupron) and stigma?

post up a link to what your reading and we can all be on the same page in the discussion.

[otolith]

As I understand it, the sterility comes entirely from the subsequent hormone treatment, once they make a decision to transition. The medication to delay puberty doesn't do that (it would hardly be an acceptable treatment for precocious puberty if it did!).

[p2c]

AJS- said:

Couple of questions then.

Would you support someone who felt they identified with another race? I know this came up with Rachel Dolezal in the US, and I've read a couple of articles simply dismissing her as a fraud. That may well be true for that case but can you identify as a different race? Could and should medicine be used to change skin colour and other physical characteristics of a white man who identifies as Chinese?

I'm not sure what my position on race dysphoria is, I have no experience or done any real research. I'm not sure if it is a real problem though (but i stand to be corrected) as i haven't really seen evidence of people experiencing or being in distress from it such that it hasn't been alleviated by assimilating themselves into the culture and social environment they identify, the way Rachel Dolezal did.

on that subject i didn't follow Rachel Dolezal story in much depth, my main thoughts at the time were the coincidence with the story breaking and Caitlyn Jenner's big reveal and how Rachel Dolezal seemed to be a proxy and substitute for a lot of the intolerance, with both individuals situations being compared in many media reports.

AJS- said:

Why do you imagine that society holds negative views of transgender people? Although some groups are more tolerant than others, it does seem to be generally deemed a negative across most major cultures. Why?

I think society is intolerant of whats different and what they don't understand, that is why it is so important to educate on these subjects, it has more or less worked for LGB but there is still a fair way to go and its hard work.

I think this opening passage from this article does a good job of explaining where we are though.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/146819...

said:

Trans, the state of identifying with a gender other than one assigned at birth, dates back into pre-history. Indeed, many cultures have had, and still have, specifically accepted, and many times honoured, places for people who do not adhere to one gender assigned at birth: Including the hijra in south Asia; two-spirit people such as wíŋkte of the Lakota; hwame of the Mohave; nádleehé of the Navajo and ilhamana of the Zuni; and also the Samoan fa'afāfine; the māhū from Hawaii and Tahiti; the fakaletī of Tonga and many others (Herdt, 1996; Meyerowitz, 2002). Of course, these terms do not perfectly fit contemporary high Gross Domestic Product (GDP) Western norms of trans identities where people have access to technology which may not be available elsewhere. These high GDP Western notions of trans identities have, historically, evolved within countries which have Judeo-Christian traditions concerning gender including a strict separation of “the sexes” of male and female. Consequently, transgressions of this separation, such as trans identities and practices, have been labelled “sin” (Bullough & Bullough, 1977).

It comes down to religion, even if the person showing intolerance or prejudice does not consider themselves religious and may even actively reject the notion that they are, the society we in the UK live in has Christianity so woven into it that it is inseparable from how we live our lives (for the time being anyway)

[AJS-]

Everyone sees the establishment as being against their side!

Maybe these methods are used, but there seems to be a bit emphasis on facilitating the belief rather than looking for underlying causes.

I don't pretend it's a completely unbiased source but this site has some very interesting reading:

http://4thwavenow.com/

Weather and species are perhaps a bit abstract. What about race? Or if an able bodied child decided they wished to be in a wheelchair? Should changing race or living as though disabled be facilitated too?

MMGW and saturated fats were two examples I was going to post, and decided not to for fear of opening up a whole new debate! The dramatic U turn on the causes of stomach ulcers is another interesting one.

One of the drugs commonly used is Leuproelin. They threw it out for use in traeting autism as it wasn't effective, and also "used on children or adolescents it could cause disastrous and irreversible damage to sexual functioning."

Sounds pretty serious to me.

[AJS-]

otolith said:

As I understand it, the sterility comes entirely from the subsequent hormone treatment, once they make a decision to transition. The medication to delay puberty doesn't do that (it would hardly be an acceptable treatment for precocious puberty if it did!).

Not how I am reading it, but I am looking this up on the hoof while pretending to work, so I could be wrong.

I've lost the page now but the greatest danger seems to be in long term use (3+ years) where the use in delaying precocious puberty is usually shorter in duration. If you give it to an 9 year old for a year to delay puberty the risk is reduced. If you give it to a 11 year old for 5 years until they reach the age where they can make a decision on becoming trans the decision then the risk is far greater.

The main thing though is that this is not the purpose the drug was developed, tested or licenced for, and as far as I can tell there haven't been any studies of use in this way. This makes using it this way now essentially a large scale experiment using real life confused kids.


I will watch race dysphoria with interest. I wouldn't be surprised to see it become something we need to raise awareness of in the next few years. Though perhaps it will take the development of some expensive designer drugs which can assist with it first. Just a guess.


I don't necessarily think the traditional western view on gender is the "correct" way. As I said earlier I think it's probably a massive simplification, and I recognise that other gender identities have a long history. It's not the natural development of children to pursue interests and adopt habits more commonly associated with the opposite sex that I object to though. It's the use of hormones and supposedly advanced surgical techniques on vulnerable people which I find wrong.

[otolith]

AJS- said:

One of the drugs commonly used is Leuproelin. They threw it out for use in traeting autism as it wasn't effective, and also "used on children or adolescents it could cause disastrous and irreversible damage to sexual functioning."

Sounds pretty serious to me.

Following the reference in the wiki page, I can't find any source for that other than an assertion in the section marked "Our Opinion" on an autism charity site. There are side effects and risks associated with that drug (as there are with anything that works), but nothing about permanent infertility.

https://www.lupronped.com/utility/safety-informati...

[AJS-]

otolith said:

Following the reference in the wiki page, I can't find any source for that other than an assertion in the section marked "Our Opinion" on an autism charity site. There are side effects and risks associated with that drug (as there are with anything that works), but nothing about permanent infertility.

https://www.lupronped.com/utility/safety-informati...

Could that be because the drug isn't designed or licensed for this reason or duration of use in children and adolescents?

Only time will tell what the effects will be.

[otolith]

I think trying to use it to treat autism was a pretty daft thing to do. Unless you are specifically trying to suppress sex hormones, that's some pretty heavy side effects.

I would think that the durations of use for treating precocious puberty and for delaying puberty in people with gender dysphoria would be about the same.

I think for me the key thing is that one would not be going down this route unless the alternatives were worse. I can't imagine what life is like for the child and family concerned, but certainly not something one would wish on anybody. It seems to me to be a good compromise between doing nothing and doing something irreversible.

[AJS-]

I guess it depends when early puberty begins but I doubt very much you would delay it until aged 16, as in the case of a possibly trans child.

I must admit I'm finding it very hard to see any solid link with infertility. This NHS article posted on a transgender equality site says:

Ideally, medical treatment should be based on scientific evidence, but there is little research about the use of cross-sex hormones.

on page 10, then states

Hormone treatment will make you infertile after a while. This is true for trans men and for trans women.

but doesn't give any actual source, and it isn't clear if this applies only to adults. (Top of page 16)


So I'll hold fire on the long term infertility claim. Even so, I really do struggle to think of many alternatives that could be worse than subjecting a physically healthy child to this sort of thing.

[otolith]

The infertility results from the post-16 hormone treatment to masculinise/feminise.

For potentially trans kids, you might be looking at treatment from 12 or 13 to 16. For kids with precocious puberty, usually defined as the signs of secondary sexual characteristics appearing at <8 in girls or <9 in boys, you could be looking at treatment for the same duration or longer.