Are men afraid of transgender women?

[anonymous-user]

Esseesse said:

NinjaPower said:

From my point of view, I would not sleep with a transgender woman, no matter how attractive they were, as I would know they were originally a man, and therefore in my view, still a man no matter how much surgery or laser hair removal they had.

I fully accept that legally they are classed as women and I have no issue with this whatsoever.

How do these two opinions square? Or do you just accept that the legal classification of gender is now open to abuse?

I believe that the broadening of legal classification/definition of what is a man or a woman is necessary to protect transgender people from discrimination and other issues. I think this is a good thing.

What I class as a man or a woman in my own mind, for my own sexual attraction, is up to me and is completely separate from what the law says.

[otolith]

This appears to be mostly about consent. People are allowed to withhold sexual consent for whatever damn reason they choose, however arbitrary. How do we think an article would be received if it criticised the basis of women's decisions about who they will or will not have sex with?

There is another question around consent - it has been suggested by some feminists and some lawyers that withholding information which you know would be likely to stop a woman wishing to sleep with you invalidates their consent. It's a contentious matter, but the argument has been made. Given that - as the article points out - most men would not consent to sex if they knew their partner was a trans woman, is it moral to obtain consent while withholding that information?

Some of the debate here;

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/...

[technodup]

Prince Philip said:

Men are afraid of transgender women until they meet one and understand the process.

My ex got talking to someone while I was at the bar once. Strange looking thing, turned out it was a girl we went to school with who was pretending to be a man. Man haircut, tits strapped flat and a plastic tube to piss through standing up (apparently!). Called itself Flynn, the most unconvincing 'man' ever to walk the streets of Glasgow.

I'm definitely still in the 'if its got ovaries it's a bird' camp.

And as for the one pictured, no chance. I met a bird recently in a club who told me almost straight away she was a 'working girl', she forgot to mention she was also a crack addict til later on. That was bad enough but if she'd said she 'used to be' a man I think I'd have knocked her out. If she waited until after the deed I definitely would have knocked her out.

I should point out I politely declined the main offer from the junkie we, and I'll probably not be back in Stoke in a hurry. On Adultwork if anyone is in the area and has cheap needs.

[Esseesse]

r11co said:

So, how exactly does your simplistic and incomplete view marry-up with people born with different chromosomal arrangements to the most common XX and XY? 'Male' and 'female' as we refer to them are by far the most common 'genders' but they are not by nature the only two that exist.

I am waiting for some idiot to now point out that these few people born with different chromosomal arrangements are 'freaks', but unless you are a creationist you should know that human gender 'norms' are a result of evolution and no-one decided they were 'correct'.

Other species show very different characteristics as their evolved norms, such as the ability to change sex etc.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 19th August 22:13

What are these other genders that humans can be other than male and female?

[Some Gump]

One thing that always seems to pass by those that use daft terms like 'cis male' and 'transphobic'...

IF you accept the proposed notion that a the people in that article are female, then you still have the issue that they're all minging. Is a refusal to shag mingers xphobic? (Where x is the hand wringer's flavour of the month)?

[mph1977]

Ari said:

mph1977 said:

i would advise those offering some of the more offensive opinions need to be careful of various legislation as 'Hate crime convict' really doesn;t go down well on CVs ...

for all you know your boss ( or his /her boss) could be trans ...

Not wanting to sleep with someone who used to be a bloke is a 'hate crime'?

How does that work then?

calling them 'sick' , 'deviant' , claiming it;s a mental illness ...

implying that it is acceptable to harass, bully and demean trans people ...

[mph1977]

KFC said:

You might regard Kaitlen Jenner as a straight woman (assuming she's into men, have to admit I've not been following it closely). I don't.... to me its a gay bloke with a new bodykit on it.

I don't care what their now edited birth certificate says. If it was born a man with functioning mens bits... its a man. If it was born able to bear kids... its a woman.

so what does that make someone who is female assigned at birth but who cannot conceive or carry a pregnancy to full term

be careful now as you'll be adding further evidence of your idiocy, bigotry and willingness to engage in hate crimes if you aren;t careful with your answer ...

i also note that people seem to be obsessed with MtF who want to transition, rather than any other gender identity ...

[mph1977]

Some Gump said:

One thing that always seems to pass by those that use daft terms like 'cis male' and 'transphobic'...

IF you accept the proposed notion that a the people in that article are female, then you still have the issue that they're all minging. Is a refusal to shag mingers xphobic? (Where x is the hand wringer's flavour of the month)?

ah the bliss of ignorance ... one of the reason you think all MtF trans are 'mingers' is becasue you can't spot those who 'pass from 10 feet ' .i.e. if you walked past them in the street or in the shop you wouldn't necessarily realise they were trans ...

[mph1977]

and perhaps unsuprigingly a good few reports have had to be made based on the offensive content of some posts ...

[p2c]

mph1977 said:

i also note that people seem to be obsessed with MtF who want to transition, rather than any other gender identity ...

It sounds to me like a lot of them would be quite happy to strike up a relationship with Buck Angel and walk down the high st hand in hand, after all he will always be a 'she' to them.

Given they are struggling with trans woman and cant cope with trans men, i think introducing gender non binary and gender fluid would blow their mind. They could go to bed with a chick and really do wake up next to a dude in some gender fluid cases.

Edited by p2c on Thursday 20th August 01:31

[mph1977]

p2c said:

mph1977 said:

i also note that people seem to be obsessed with MtF who want to transition, rather than any other gender identity ...

It sounds to me like a lot of them would be quite happy to strike up a relationship with Buck Angel and walk down the high st hand in hand, after all he will always be a 'she' to them.

Given they are struggling with trans woman and cant cope with trans men, i think introducing gender non binary and gender fluid would blow their mind. They could go to bed with a chick and really do wake up next to a dude in some gender fluid cases.

Edited by p2c on Thursday 20th August 01:31

indeed , genderfluidity / bi-gender would really blow their minds ...

[AJS-]

One aspect that I am curious about is what exactly is it hoped will be achieved by a drive to "correct" the thinking of so many heterosexual males? Reliable figures are hard to find but it seems that about 700,000 Americans, or 0.2-0.3% of the total population are transgender, here. Assuming those figures apply to the UK that makes about 120,000 people who are "trapped in the wrong body." That means you could probably go a perfectly happy and full life without ever meeting one.

If this miniscule minority really is facing disproportionate violence would it not be better to direct our resources to punishing and deterring violent offenders across all categories? And ditto irrational discrimination? Do we need to "raise awareness" of every obscure group who may face negative discrimination? Or do we need to firmly implant the idea that the use of violence will be met with negative consequences? And that people are different and it's really none of your business.

If the target of this is to make those already transgendered feel more comfortable about being openly so then fine, but I would look to why they currently feel uncomfortable with that rather than assume the problem lies in the remaining 99.7% of the population. If I have highly visible tattoos, wear a bone through my nose or dress as a medieval knight in armour, then I accept there are social implications of this. I don't see why a man attempting to live his life as a woman should expect to be expressly shielded from this.

If the target is to encourage an unknown, wavering section of the community who may seek gender reassignment if they felt there were less social stigma to it to actually do so, then I would be more interested to see that these operations are successful. Not just for a few celebrities who talk to glossy magazines about it but for ordinary people who were struggling in a male body, underwent surgery and hormone treatment and are living with that choice 5, 10, 20 years later. Might the "stigma" and social disincentives around undergoing this drastic operation might actually be subtracting from, rather than adding to the sum total of human misery?


It appears to me that this is more about loudly promoting a lifestyle choice as a fashionable cause in itself, and elevating another group to the sunny uplands of formerly oppressed minorities than it is about promoting tolerance and reducing harm. No one seems interested in raising awareness of Zoroastrians, train spotters, fat men on bicycles or other obscure groups who may face derogatory comments and occasional acts of violence by idiotic bigots who would probably find some other equally meaningless pretext for their behaviour otherwise.

Edited by AJS- on Thursday 20th August 03:29

[PurpleMoonlight]

Having a 'plastic' vagina does not make you female, it just makes you look female.

The whole legislation is PC gone mad .....

[anonymous-user]

It's all getting a bit "Modern Parents" around PH these days...

[r11co]

NinjaPower said:

No amount of legislation or campaigning is going to convince my mind and body that a woman who used to be a man is sexually attractive to me.

Unless they never, ever told you and the rest was down to your own physical and mental attraction to them! The irony of this statement is immense.

[anonymous-user]

r11co said:

NinjaPower said:

No amount of legislation or campaigning is going to convince my mind and body that a woman who used to be a man is sexually attractive to me.

Unless they never, ever told you and the rest was down to your own physical and mental attraction to them! The irony of this statement is immense.

You'd do well not to notice if you were getting, shall we say, a little oral. And the stubble, adam's apple, big hands, skill with a spanner, desire to paint the garden fence, lack of cooking skills, not fiddling with the thermostat every ten seconds, etc.

[r11co]

Esseesse said:

What are these other genders that humans can be other than male and female?

Plenty of links have been posted already regarding chromosomal differences and their physical effects - medical facts going back hundreds of years - so I can safely assume either you haven't bothered to read them, lack the intelligence to understand or have chosen to wilfully ignore what they say if you do not already know the answer to this.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 20th August 07:04

[LarryLamb]

I've sometimes wondered how this will affect sport in the future. Will these transgender 'women' be able to compete as men? Sure, in something like show jumping, it would make no difference, but in a sport where strength and power are important, surely this would give them an unfair advantage?

If they introduced a veteran Olympics, could Jenner compete as a woman?

I assume in reality these type of people aren't wired for sports so unlikely to happen. Or has it happened already and we are not aware?

[anonymous-user]

Is "intersex" essentially the mutation of the body during pre-birth development? Can "intersex" people produce offspring?

[Axionknight]

GroundEffect said:

TheSnitch said:

GroundEffect said:

Axionknight said:

Luke Warm said:

Axionknight said:

He did have a cock and was a male though, right?

Female brain, male genitals. Now has a female brain and genitals. And breasts. To all intents and purposes, it's a woman.

What about his chromosones? Bloke like XY or lady like XX? Surely your make up defines what you really are? You can have as much surgery ad you like and call yourself what you want - but underneath it all, your still a fella if that's how you were made up.

Female brain eh, so basically a bloke who likes to nag, shop and tidy their partners car keys away into unimaginable, unfindable places?

Humans, as well as some other organisms, can have a chromosomal arrangement that is contrary to their phenotypic sex; for example, XX males or XY females (see androgen insensitivity syndrome). Additionally, an abnormal number of sex chromosomes (aneuploidy) may be present, such as Turner's syndrome, in which a single X chromosome is present, and Klinefelter's syndrome, in which two X chromosomes and a Y chromosome are present, XYY syndrome and XXYY syndrome.[1] Other less common chromosomal arrangements include: triple X syndrome, 48, XXXX, and 49, XXXXX.

Above from wiki on chromosomes.

So how do you define these people? A man having XX chromosomes? Is he a woman really?

The term ''intersex'' is often used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Which will probably be pushed under the rug in his 'everything is black and white!' View.

That's actually a really interesting read, learned quite a bit from it, cheers.

The Thai pictured at the top of page two though - the one I'm talking about, I can't find any evidence anywhere to show that these chromosome "issues" are the case though, it just strikes me a someone born male whole identifies with being female and I can't see anything online to the contrary, can you?