Are men afraid of transgender women?

[popeyewhite]

Europa1 said:

I don't think it's an astonishing conclusion at all - having said he had no issues with TG people, he then went on to say he had "serious issues" with a male-to-female TG using the same toilets as his daughter "whilst still a child".

Serious issues = sadistic paedophilia? Really?

[p2c]

boyse7en and romeogolf

[Europa1]

popeyewhite said:

Europa1 said:

I don't think it's an astonishing conclusion at all - having said he had no issues with TG people, he then went on to say he had "serious issues" with a male-to-female TG using the same toilets as his daughter "whilst still a child".

Serious issues = sadistic paedophilia? Really?

I'm just struggling to see what harm he thinks might occur.

[popeyewhite]

FredClogs said:

Well what else would he have to fear from sending his kid into a bog with a non binary gendered person. What has he got to fear? I fear my kids being kidnapped and horribly abused, of course I do it's the most horrific thing imaginable but I don't fear them seeing a man in a dress or a man in a dress seeing them, why would I? Absolutely no harm will be done. So what IS the fear here?

The post didn't mention 'fear'. I read "issue" and "worry" though. I think he has explained his lack of knowledge on the subject. Combine that with his upbringing, class, culture and a little objectivity and it's quite clear what drives his opinion. You may have to accept the fact some quarters of society don't yet share your views, possibly because they are a long way down a list of life important matters that their children need education in.

[BlackLabel]

Don't call pregnant women 'expectant mothers' as it might offend transgender people, BMA says

telegraph said:

The British Medical Association has said pregnant women should not be called "expectant mothers" as it could offend transgender people.

Instead, they should call them "pregnant people" so as not to upset intersex and transgender men, the union has said.

The advice comes in an internal document to staff outlining a raft of common phrases that should be avoided for fear of causing offence.

[Morningside]

Serious questions here.

LGBT. Why are they all in the same group? Being transgender would not mean you are gay as you are a gender in the wrong physical body?

Another thing that has confused is someone in the paper has transgresssed (?) into a woman but decided to keep the man bits. I would have thought that you want want to GET RID of any manly parts if you truly wanted to be a woman?

Did anyone watch My transexual summer a few back? I thought it was very interesting. Wish they would do an update.

[romeogolf]

BlackLabel said:

Don't call pregnant women 'expectant mothers' as it might offend transgender people, BMA says

telegraph said:

The British Medical Association has said pregnant women should not be called "expectant mothers" as it could offend transgender people.

Instead, they should call them "pregnant people" so as not to upset intersex and transgender men, the union has said.

The advice comes in an internal document to staff outlining a raft of common phrases that should be avoided for fear of causing offence.

The problem is actually with the article calling it "offensive". It's not offensive, but it's not inclusive. Offensive is knowing that you're talking to a transgender man who is pregnant and calling him a mother. But changing the name of the 'group' (pregnant mothers > pregnant people) means that all those expecting children are included. You don't lose anything, a preganant woman is still a pregnant woman and can still be called as such, but in an environment where both cisgender and transgender people are being welcomed it makes sense to use an inclusive term. Just as in the same way as mothers and fathers are grouped in the same way as "parents".

Imagine you are transgender. You were born female, but transitioned to male without having had surgery. This means you are biologically female, but your gender is male. At work, you're called Sir. Your driving licence says Mr. If you adopted a child, you would be called a father. Why should that change if you have the child biologically? Why can you not just be called an "expectant parent" and be included within the same group as other expectant parents?

I point out that I'm not specifically questioning you, BlackLabel, as you didn't make any comment about the article.

[Goaty Bill 2]

BlackLabel said:

Don't call pregnant women 'expectant mothers' as it might offend transgender people, BMA says

telegraph said:

The British Medical Association has said pregnant women should not be called "expectant mothers" as it could offend transgender people.

Instead, they should call them "pregnant people" so as not to upset intersex and transgender men, the union has said.

The advice comes in an internal document to staff outlining a raft of common phrases that should be avoided for fear of causing offence.

If any twit refers to me as an "assigned male" (as per the article) they will discover very rapidly what an offended person actually looks like.
If I find it on any forms I will cross through assigned.

One wonders if they even bothered to ask intersex or transgender men if they actually feel offended?
The usual way of these organisations is to presume a moral superiority over the rest of society, and assume the job of protectorate of the downtrodden, without actually having the permission of the very people they claim to represent.


ETA
I take your point romeogolf
However the article continuously refers to "offence" and "offend", hence it is the context in which I respond.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Monday 30th January 09:58

[romeogolf]

Morningside said:

Serious questions here.

LGBT. Why are they all in the same group? Being transgender would not mean you are gay as you are a gender in the wrong physical body?

Another thing that has confused is someone in the paper has transgresssed (?) into a woman but decided to keep the man bits. I would have thought that you want want to GET RID of any manly parts if you truly wanted to be a woman?

Did anyone watch My transexual summer a few back? I thought it was very interesting. Wish they would do an update.

I don't have a definitive answer for why LGB is the same group as T, but the two communities have often been closely linked socially and culturally, so it fits. There is still a great deal of transphobia (and bi-phobia) within the gay community which is hugely unfortunate, as you would expect that a group who have experienced their own discrimination would be more understanding of a second group suffering the same injustices. For a long time it was LGB but the T has been added more recently to be more inclusive and to tackle some of that internal transphobia, and you'll also often see a Q for either 'queer' or 'questioning' as some people don't feel they other terms describe them, or just to include those who feel they may be LGBT but aren't sure and are looking for support. Amazingly many young people don't contact LGBT groups for support as they believe they have to come out first, or by asking for support from that group it would define them as being gay... And they're not ready or not sure of it, and just want to have a conversation. The Q/Questioning part is useful to invite those people.

Transitioning from one gender to another is a hugely personal decision, and I'm not trans so I can't really answer for any one specific individual. However, being transgender isn't about wanting to have the opposite-sex genitals, it's about living as the opposite gender. That means, for example, that if a woman wished to trasition to male, she might have a double mastectomy, also known as 'top surgery' (removal of the breasts), in order to wear male clothing and 'pass' (be seen) as male, but may have no desire to change genitalia as these are not seen by the public.

There are other transgender people who do feel uncomfortable with their genitals, and they may well have 'bottom surgery'. Again, it's a personal choice and you can't really understand any one person's reasoning without them telling you... But it is highly personal, so unless they're a close friend I wouldn't suggest asking.

[romeogolf]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

ETA
I take your point romeogolf
However the article continuously refers to "offence" and "offend", hence it is the context in which I respond.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Monday 30th January 09:58

I know, and my issue is with the article saying it. It's hard to find a decent synonym without the implied feeling of intentional insult.

For example, I am not "offended" when someone asks if I have a girlfriend, but that doesn't stop me feeling frustrated that I still have to correct people and say that I have a boyfriend. It's not their fault, it's a general assumption, and unless they've really thought about it there would be no reason to ask "Do you have a partner?" instead. It would be offensive if they then referred to my male partner as a 'housemate' or 'good friend', because that would then be intentional

[romeogolf]

Esseesse said:

With all of this trans-whatever, anyone else feel the left may have jumped the shark?

If all the responses here were "Yeah, sure, I get it. Use the toilet you want, wear the clothes you want, and get the medical care you require" then I would say so. Unfortunately, there's a great deal of misunderstanding and discomfort around a lot of these issues, so a bit of public information and education is useful.

There is a certain degree of being-overly-cautious which irks me, but the intentions are good, so it doesn't hurt to help.

[Morningside]

romeogolf said:

Morningside said:

Serious questions here.

LGBT. Why are they all in the same group? Being transgender would not mean you are gay as you are a gender in the wrong physical body?

Another thing that has confused is someone in the paper has transgresssed (?) into a woman but decided to keep the man bits. I would have thought that you want want to GET RID of any manly parts if you truly wanted to be a woman?

Did anyone watch My transexual summer a few back? I thought it was very interesting. Wish they would do an update.

I don't have a definitive answer for why LGB is the same group as T, but the two communities have often been closely linked socially and culturally, so it fits. There is still a great deal of transphobia (and bi-phobia) within the gay community which is hugely unfortunate, as you would expect that a group who have experienced their own discrimination would be more understanding of a second group suffering the same injustices. For a long time it was LGB but the T has been added more recently to be more inclusive and to tackle some of that internal transphobia, and you'll also often see a Q for either 'queer' or 'questioning' as some people don't feel they other terms describe them, or just to include those who feel they may be LGBT but aren't sure and are looking for support. Amazingly many young people don't contact LGBT groups for support as they believe they have to come out first, or by asking for support from that group it would define them as being gay... And they're not ready or not sure of it, and just want to have a conversation. The Q/Questioning part is useful to invite those people.

Transitioning from one gender to another is a hugely personal decision, and I'm not trans so I can't really answer for any one specific individual. However, being transgender isn't about wanting to have the opposite-sex genitals, it's about living as the opposite gender. That means, for example, that if a woman wished to trasition to male, she might have a double mastectomy, also known as 'top surgery' (removal of the breasts), in order to wear male clothing and 'pass' (be seen) as male, but may have no desire to change genitalia as these are not seen by the public.

There are other transgender people who do feel uncomfortable with their genitals, and they may well have 'bottom surgery'. Again, it's a personal choice and you can't really understand any one person's reasoning without them telling you... But it is highly personal, so unless they're a close friend I wouldn't suggest asking.

Thank you for the very in-depth answers. So (probably) daft question but just wanting to pass as a woman is that not just cross dressing? Or is totally living as another gender?

Would also not removing the genitalia cause problems if the woman wanted to seek out a male partner? A male partner who does not see himself as 'gay' for wanting a relationship with a non surgery female?

[romeogolf]

Morningside said:

romeogolf said:

Morningside said:

Serious questions here.

LGBT. Why are they all in the same group? Being transgender would not mean you are gay as you are a gender in the wrong physical body?

Another thing that has confused is someone in the paper has transgresssed (?) into a woman but decided to keep the man bits. I would have thought that you want want to GET RID of any manly parts if you truly wanted to be a woman?

Did anyone watch My transexual summer a few back? I thought it was very interesting. Wish they would do an update.

I don't have a definitive answer for why LGB is the same group as T, but the two communities have often been closely linked socially and culturally, so it fits. There is still a great deal of transphobia (and bi-phobia) within the gay community which is hugely unfortunate, as you would expect that a group who have experienced their own discrimination would be more understanding of a second group suffering the same injustices. For a long time it was LGB but the T has been added more recently to be more inclusive and to tackle some of that internal transphobia, and you'll also often see a Q for either 'queer' or 'questioning' as some people don't feel they other terms describe them, or just to include those who feel they may be LGBT but aren't sure and are looking for support. Amazingly many young people don't contact LGBT groups for support as they believe they have to come out first, or by asking for support from that group it would define them as being gay... And they're not ready or not sure of it, and just want to have a conversation. The Q/Questioning part is useful to invite those people.

Transitioning from one gender to another is a hugely personal decision, and I'm not trans so I can't really answer for any one specific individual. However, being transgender isn't about wanting to have the opposite-sex genitals, it's about living as the opposite gender. That means, for example, that if a woman wished to trasition to male, she might have a double mastectomy, also known as 'top surgery' (removal of the breasts), in order to wear male clothing and 'pass' (be seen) as male, but may have no desire to change genitalia as these are not seen by the public.

There are other transgender people who do feel uncomfortable with their genitals, and they may well have 'bottom surgery'. Again, it's a personal choice and you can't really understand any one person's reasoning without them telling you... But it is highly personal, so unless they're a close friend I wouldn't suggest asking.

Thank you for the very in-depth answers. So (probably) daft question but just wanting to pass as a woman is that not just cross dressing? Or is totally living as another gender?

Would also not removing the genitalia cause problems if the woman wanted to seek out a male partner? A male partner who does not see himself as 'gay' for wanting a relationship with a non surgery female?

I'm happy to be corrected here, as I'm not an expert, but this is my understanding.

Someone who cross-dresses would still be classifying themselves as male, most probably. So they'd be Mr Paul Smith, but they prefer to wear womens clothing, whether on a regular basis or just on special ocassions or whatever. They may or may not prefer to be referred to as 'she' when cross-dressed but that would be personal preference. They would likely expect to be seen as "a man in women's clothes" and would accept this. Their mannerisms would still most likely be male when not in cross-dressing items.

Transgender is a little deeper, as it means living as the other gender. So that would be Ms Paulette Smith, referred to as she, and considered a woman in terms of gender. While Paulette may not pass very well, the chances are her intentions are to pass and she would make every effort to do so such as by by crossing her legs while sitting, or walking in a more 'feminine' stance.

Sexuality is complicated as there are plenty of people who consider themselves to be straight, but are in relationships with transgender people. I consider myself gay, I'm attracted to men, and I'm also attracted to some transmen (those born as women) who 'pass' well. I'm not the same as every gay man, of course, I'm just me... but sexuality is blurry like that.

I'm struggling to find a good comparable example, and apologies in advance if this is offensive/crude but you could almost consider this issue the same as where a woman has had a mastectomy for medical reasons, such as a cancer scare. Would that make her too 'masculine' for some men/lesbians? Probably, but not all of them. Equally, does a circumcision make a man unattractive to a woman or gay man? Again, personal preference. Actually, those are both really poor examples but I hope the 'idea' makes sense?

[Goaty Bill 2]

romeogolf said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

ETA
I take your point romeogolf
However the article continuously refers to "offence" and "offend", hence it is the context in which I respond.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Monday 30th January 09:58

I know, and my issue is with the article saying it. It's hard to find a decent synonym without the implied feeling of intentional insult.

For example, I am not "offended" when someone asks if I have a girlfriend, but that doesn't stop me feeling frustrated that I still have to correct people and say that I have a boyfriend. It's not their fault, it's a general assumption, and unless they've really thought about it there would be no reason to ask "Do you have a partner?" instead. It would be offensive if they then referred to my male partner as a 'housemate' or 'good friend', because that would then be intentional

I have a couple of male friends, and now thinking about it a couple of female friends in years past, that have or still 'bat for both sides' as it were, and so it seems to me that the question is never as simple as it initially seems to anyone.
Accepting that society's 'normal' assumptions are in fact 'normal' is IMO the best way to allow society to make its adjustments.

I once referred to my business 'partner' without the prepositional 'business' when speaking to a client colleague, and the immediate assumption was that I would be most interested in visiting Manchester's Canal Street district One just has to smile/laugh, make the polite correction and carry on really.

I find it often will be easier, without prior information, to use the term 'partner' which allows the person to respond in a way to indicate the sex of their partner. Generally speaking straight men and women will most often not reveal the sex of said partner, thus confirming they are very likely heterosexual. The majority of people of other persuasions will be polite enough to supply the information required to avoid any future faux pas on my part.

As I referred to above, it is a social negotiation, and not difficult at all when reasonable people meet with reasonable people.

[romeogolf]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

I have a couple of male friends, and now thinking about it a couple of female friends in years past, that have or still 'bat for both sides' as it were, and so it seems to me that the question is never as simple as it initially seems to anyone.
Accepting that society's 'normal' assumptions are in fact 'normal' is IMO the best way to allow society to make its adjustments.

I once referred to my business 'partner' without the prepositional 'business' when speaking to a client colleague, and the immediate assumption was that I would be most interested in visiting Manchester's Canal Street district One just has to smile/laugh, make the polite correction and carry on really.

I find it often will be easier, without prior information, to use the term 'partner' which allows the person to respond in a way to indicate the sex of their partner. Generally speaking straight men and women will most often not reveal the sex of said partner, thus confirming they are very likely heterosexual. The majority of people of other persuasions will be polite enough to supply the information required to avoid any future faux pas on my part.

As I referred to above, it is a social negotiation, and not difficult at all when reasonable people meet with reasonable people.

I agree with you, which is why I wish that people just asked "Are you seeing anyone / Are you married?" as it's the easiest and most inclusive question. I generally refer to my other half as my 'partner' until I feel comfortable mentioning that he's a bloke. It's that fine line between being open, being comfortable, and being seen to 'ram it down my throat' as some people so eloquently put it.

Like you say, it's about being reasonable. And I think if someone says "using this term could be offensive/cause discomfort" then the reasonable thing to do would be to avoid using the term.

[Morningside]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

romeogolf said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

ETA
I take your point romeogolf
However the article continuously refers to "offence" and "offend", hence it is the context in which I respond.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Monday 30th January 09:58

I know, and my issue is with the article saying it. It's hard to find a decent synonym without the implied feeling of intentional insult.

For example, I am not "offended" when someone asks if I have a girlfriend, but that doesn't stop me feeling frustrated that I still have to correct people and say that I have a boyfriend. It's not their fault, it's a general assumption, and unless they've really thought about it there would be no reason to ask "Do you have a partner?" instead. It would be offensive if they then referred to my male partner as a 'housemate' or 'good friend', because that would then be intentional

I have a couple of male friends, and now thinking about it a couple of female friends in years past, that have or still 'bat for both sides' as it were, and so it seems to me that the question is never as simple as it initially seems to anyone.
Accepting that society's 'normal' assumptions are in fact 'normal' is IMO the best way to allow society to make its adjustments.

I once referred to my business 'partner' without the prepositional 'business' when speaking to a client colleague, and the immediate assumption was that I would be most interested in visiting Manchester's Canal Street district One just has to smile/laugh, make the polite correction and carry on really.

I find it often will be easier, without prior information, to use the term 'partner' which allows the person to respond in a way to indicate the sex of their partner. Generally speaking straight men and women will most often not reveal the sex of said partner, thus confirming they are very likely heterosexual. The majority of people of other persuasions will be polite enough to supply the information required to avoid any future faux pas on my part.

As I referred to above, it is a social negotiation, and not difficult at all when reasonable people meet with reasonable people.

I refer to my other half as partner as I think we are too old to refer to each other as boyfriend/girlfriend. Although we do get called husband/wife quite a lot.

[clockworks]

I must admit that I never realised until very recently just how fluid sexuality and identity is. I guess I have lead a very sheltered life, brought up in a very black and white world.
My sister came out a few years ago, now living with a female.
A very close female friend is gay, but happily married to a man.
My team leader is a gay man.
A classmate on my college course is a married man, and wears women's clothing all the time, but no make up and is nearly bald.
A customer does the full cross-dressing thing, goes by a female name, but talks and acts male.
A classmate last year had the full female to male reassignment at a young age.

All except the last seem very comfortable with who they are.


Something that's confusing me about the "pregnant people" newspaper story:

Is it actually possible for someone born female, but taking hormones (and possibly having surgery) to become male, to become pregnant?

Does the term "mother" only apply to someone who identifies as female, or does it mean someone who has given birth?

[Halb]

I don't tink it matters. Just don't try and intentionally offend anyone and it all should be good.

[FredClogs]

Err...

Bit scares now.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/ch...

[mybrainhurts]

FredClogs said:

Err...

Bit scares now.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/ch...

...RUN AWAY

But you'll have to be bloody quick...