Ukraine warming up
Discussion
scherzkeks said:
DMN said:
No, we just accept that two wrongs do not make a right. If you want to start a discussion about Hawaii, you are free to do so in another thread. This is a thread about Putins illegal actions in the Ukraine. Trying to obfuscate will not change that.
I see you are new here. In fact Moscow is rational and predictable, and - IMHO - to fall out with a power with whom we have no strategic conflict of interest at such a time of international turmoil and uncertainty is folly of the nth degree.
Cheese Mechanic said:
Octoposse said:
Article 1
The Purposes of the United Nations are:
. . . . To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples . . .
What has that got to do with Russia invading Ukraine? Particularly with tank variants only Russia uses? The Purposes of the United Nations are:
. . . . To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples . . .
Just one report here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30907443
Another here, "rebels" admitting Regular Russian forces involved (if we were ever stupid enough to think otherwise)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/r...
Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Tuesday 25th August 09:37
The wider point is that without Russian assistance to the rebels, Kiev's airpower, artillery and armour would have had free rein. Cue hundreds of thousands of refugees, ethnic cleansing, and the probable fall of Putin on a wave of domestic "Why aren't we helping those poor people against the fascists?" sentiment, and his replacement by someone perceived as more willing to stand up to Western interests.
Kiev has shown itself willing to use air power and artillery against civilians - for some strange reason the inevitable grisly outcomes don't get much prominence over here.
Overthrow by force of elected government? Pissing in Russia's backyard? NATO expansion eastwards? Encourgaing Kiev to seek a military solution instead of a political one? Refusing a peace deal in Feb/March 2014? All bad ideas . . . who'd have guessed . .
Octoposse said:
Cheese Mechanic said:
Octoposse said:
Article 1
The Purposes of the United Nations are:
. . . . To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples . . .
What has that got to do with Russia invading Ukraine? Particularly with tank variants only Russia uses? The Purposes of the United Nations are:
. . . . To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples . . .
Just one report here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30907443
Another here, "rebels" admitting Regular Russian forces involved (if we were ever stupid enough to think otherwise)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/r...
Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Tuesday 25th August 09:37
The wider point is that without Russian assistance to the rebels, Kiev's airpower, artillery and armour would have had free rein. Cue hundreds of thousands of refugees, ethnic cleansing, and the probable fall of Putin on a wave of domestic "Why aren't we helping those poor people against the fascists?" sentiment, and his replacement by someone perceived as more willing to stand up to Western interests.
Kiev has shown itself willing to use air power and artillery against civilians - for some strange reason the inevitable grisly outcomes don't get much prominence over here.
Overthrow by force of elected government? Pissing in Russia's backyard? NATO expansion eastwards? Encourgaing Kiev to seek a military solution instead of a political one? Refusing a peace deal in Feb/March 2014? All bad ideas . . . who'd have guessed . .
So, should Glasgow be allowed to secede? After all, most Glaswegians voted for independence.
Without Russian aid to the rebels, Putin would have fallen? Are you serious? Even if you are, does that somehow justify what he did?
So you characterise the Maidan protests as overthrow of the elected government by force. Presumably you have the same attitude to the original Orange Revolution and to the overthrow of other Eastern European regimes, such as Ceaucesu's.
What is it with Putin apologists in the West? The man is a gangster. There is nothing whatsoever to admire about him.
scherzkeks said:
DMN said:
No, we just accept that two wrongs do not make a right. If you want to start a discussion about Hawaii, you are free to do so in another thread. This is a thread about Putins illegal actions in the Ukraine. Trying to obfuscate will not change that.
I see you are new here. 
te for some time 
Have we had this weeks show trial yet?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/25/russi...
We can't have someone from the Crimea deviating from the party line now can we comrades!
Zod said:
So you characterise the Maidan protests as overthrow of the elected government by force..
It was. Plenty of supporting info. has been posted here, including admissions from the State Dept. that they have been pumping billions into anti-govt. efforts for over a decade. I posted a Spiegel article long ago with evidence of Academi mercs on the ground in the Maidan as well.Zod said:
What is it with Putin apologists in the West? The man is a gangster. There is nothing whatsoever to admire about him.
Take it to the schoolyard please. Putin actually has little to do with the situation at hand, though the US is working hard through the MMM to keep the propaganda and sound bytes flowing. The overreach began with the US backed coup, the referendum was a reaction, and quite a sensible one when you have empire moving into territory on your border and into one of your most important military bases, with US corporations already laying the groundwork to exploit human and natural resources. Just ask Hunter Biden.
Despite your best Rovian efforts to create your own history, many of us have good memories.
Octoposse said:
elf-determination of peoples is pretty self explanatory.
The wider point is that without Russian assistance to the rebels, Kiev's airpower, artillery and armour would have had free rein. Cue hundreds of thousands of refugees, ethnic cleansing, and the probable fall of Putin on a wave of domestic "Why aren't we helping those poor people against the fascists?" sentiment, and his replacement by someone perceived as more willing to stand up to Western interests.
Kiev has shown itself willing to use air power and artillery against civilians - for some strange reason the inevitable grisly outcomes don't get much prominence over here.
Overthrow by force of elected government? Pissing in Russia's backyard? NATO expansion eastwards? Encourgaing Kiev to seek a military solution instead of a political one? Refusing a peace deal in Feb/March 2014? All bad ideas . . . who'd have guessed . .
As opposed to millions of refugees now. The reason there are refugees and civvie deaths is precisely because Putin has engineered the conflict from the very beginning. Repeat after me - There was NO separatism in Donbass before Putin's secret services, paid protesters and terrorists were sent to Ukraine. None. Sure there was some displeasure with Kiev from the locals, but support for either separating from Ukraine or joining Russia was in the single digits, in a 90% Russian speaking region.The wider point is that without Russian assistance to the rebels, Kiev's airpower, artillery and armour would have had free rein. Cue hundreds of thousands of refugees, ethnic cleansing, and the probable fall of Putin on a wave of domestic "Why aren't we helping those poor people against the fascists?" sentiment, and his replacement by someone perceived as more willing to stand up to Western interests.
Kiev has shown itself willing to use air power and artillery against civilians - for some strange reason the inevitable grisly outcomes don't get much prominence over here.
Overthrow by force of elected government? Pissing in Russia's backyard? NATO expansion eastwards? Encourgaing Kiev to seek a military solution instead of a political one? Refusing a peace deal in Feb/March 2014? All bad ideas . . . who'd have guessed . .
Imagine if Norway was sending agents into Scotland to forment street violence, murder of policemen etc and then accuse the UK of "not wanting to find a peaceful solution"
God, Western useful idiots are so tiring.
scherzkeks said:
Take it to the schoolyard please.
Putin actually has little to do with the situation at hand, though the US is working hard through the MMM to keep the propaganda and sound bytes flowing. The overreach began with the US backed coup, the referendum was a reaction, and quite a sensible one when you have empire moving into territory on your border and into one of your most important military bases, with US corporations already laying the groundwork to exploit human and natural resources. Just ask Hunter Biden.
Despite your best Rovian efforts to create your own history, many of us have good memories.
You know, just because people have had enough of African style corruption and want a better future for their kids and the country does not make them paid CIA operatives. I actually know people who went to both Maidans. Not one received a single dollar for their efforts. Maidan is a revolution of dignity by the urban bourgeoisie. Putin actually has little to do with the situation at hand, though the US is working hard through the MMM to keep the propaganda and sound bytes flowing. The overreach began with the US backed coup, the referendum was a reaction, and quite a sensible one when you have empire moving into territory on your border and into one of your most important military bases, with US corporations already laying the groundwork to exploit human and natural resources. Just ask Hunter Biden.
Despite your best Rovian efforts to create your own history, many of us have good memories.
scherzkeks said:
Zod said:
Warning: might be a bit more difficult to digest than "Putin is Hitler"
I'd be more impressed if you could persuade me that Putin is anything other than a self-interested gangster, than I am by your focus on the US.
Zod said:
You find one academic work that fits your viewpoint and I am supposed to be impressed?
I'd be more impressed if you could persuade me that Putin is anything other than a self-interested gangster, than I am by your focus on the US.
Not at all. Unipolar theory is higly relevant here, but its unlikely you'd be impressed by something as mundane,academic, and boring as that. That you have no knowledge of it is another issue entirely. I'd be more impressed if you could persuade me that Putin is anything other than a self-interested gangster, than I am by your focus on the US.
scherzkeks said:
Zod said:
You find one academic work that fits your viewpoint and I am supposed to be impressed?
I'd be more impressed if you could persuade me that Putin is anything other than a self-interested gangster, than I am by your focus on the US.
Not at all. Unipolar theory is higly relevant here. I'd be more impressed if you could persuade me that Putin is anything other than a self-interested gangster, than I am by your focus on the US.
scherzkeks said:
Zod said:
It is a distraction from the Putin question, except to the extent that it gives Putin an excuse for his actions.
The Putin question is itself a distraction. Unipolar theory on the other hand, a core force behind US foreign policy for decades.
Zod said:
I love it: employ unipolar theory to justify Putin's actions.
Yes, how extraordinary.http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/...
"But if the Middle Eastern maelstrom is the fruit of a US-dominated new world order, Ukraine is a result of the challenge to the unipolar world that grew out of the failure of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. It was the attempt to draw divided Ukraine into the western camp by EU and US hawks after years of eastward Nato expansion that triggered the crisis, Russia’s absorption of Crimea and the uprising in the Russian-speaking Donbass region of the east.
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Eight months on, elections on both sides look likely to deepen the division of the country. Routinely dismissed as Kremlin propaganda, the reality is the US and EU backed the violent overthrow of an elected if corrupt government and are now supporting a military campaign that includes far-right militias accused of war crimes — while Russia is subject to sweeping US and EU sanctions."
BTW, some of us actually studied this stuff.
Zod said:
Without Russian aid to the rebels, Putin would have fallen? Are you serious? Even if you are, does that somehow justify what he did?
Well, yes, and this is really, really basic stuff if you want to understand the sequence of events that has brought us to this entirely unnecessary confrontation.Putin's undoubtedly genuine popularity (approval ratings that any EU leader would flog their babushka for) is based on two factors - the perception that he doesn't let himself be humiliated by the West like his immediate predecessors, and paying pensions on time.
Focusing on the first - the gratuitous humiliations of Russia when it was at its lowest ebb, for example the bombing campaign against its traditional ally and co-religionist Serbia, the hectoring and lecturing by the West, are not forgotten. One of the bases of Putin’s domestic popularity is the perception that he can’t be pushed around like his immediate predecessors – ergo a ‘whatever it takes’ pushback to the overthrow of the elected government in Kiev was inevitable. And there was a genuine fear in the East following the putsch . . . there is a very strong folk-memory of fascism.
Not reacting would be the beginning of the end for Putin . . . . that must have been known and understood in the EU/US from the beginning (‘Russian Politics 101’ as they say in Washington). Playing chicken with someone who cannot afford to lose is poor decision making at the very least, and picking an unnecessary fight at a time of global turmoil and uncertainty pure folly.
scherzkeks said:
Zod said:
I love it: employ unipolar theory to justify Putin's actions.
Yes, how extraordinary.http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/...
"But if the Middle Eastern maelstrom is the fruit of a US-dominated new world order, Ukraine is a result of the challenge to the unipolar world that grew out of the failure of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. It was the attempt to draw divided Ukraine into the western camp by EU and US hawks after years of eastward Nato expansion that triggered the crisis, Russia’s absorption of Crimea and the uprising in the Russian-speaking Donbass region of the east.
Advertisement
Eight months on, elections on both sides look likely to deepen the division of the country. Routinely dismissed as Kremlin propaganda, the reality is the US and EU backed the violent overthrow of an elected if corrupt government and are now supporting a military campaign that includes far-right militias accused of war crimes — while Russia is subject to sweeping US and EU sanctions."
BTW, some of us actually studied this stuff.
Octoposse said:
Zod said:
Without Russian aid to the rebels, Putin would have fallen? Are you serious? Even if you are, does that somehow justify what he did?
Well, yes, and this is really, really basic stuff if you want to understand the sequence of events that has brought us to this entirely unnecessary confrontation.Putin's undoubtedly genuine popularity (approval ratings that any EU leader would flog their babushka for) is based on two factors - the perception that he doesn't let himself be humiliated by the West like his immediate predecessors, and paying pensions on time.
Focusing on the first - the gratuitous humiliations of Russia when it was at its lowest ebb, for example the bombing campaign against its traditional ally and co-religionist Serbia, the hectoring and lecturing by the West, are not forgotten. One of the bases of Putin’s domestic popularity is the perception that he can’t be pushed around like his immediate predecessors – ergo a ‘whatever it takes’ pushback to the overthrow of the elected government in Kiev was inevitable. And there was a genuine fear in the East following the putsch . . . there is a very strong folk-memory of fascism.
Not reacting would be the beginning of the end for Putin . . . . that must have been known and understood in the EU/US from the beginning (‘Russian Politics 101’ as they say in Washington). Playing chicken with someone who cannot afford to lose is poor decision making at the very least, and picking an unnecessary fight at a time of global turmoil and uncertainty pure folly.
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