Ukraine warming up

[Octoposse]

Nikolai Petroff said:

Maidan is a revolution of dignity by the urban bourgeoisie.

There is something in what you say, although it ignore the role of the far right and ultra-nationalists.

Be that as it may, the urban bourgeoisie of which you speak didn't vote for Viktor Yanukovych in the first place. Other people did.

As this not overtly political (albeit undoubtedly sympathetic to Russia, but mainly concerned with the preservation of historic monuments) website put it several years ago . . .

History of Maxim Gorky Naval Battery said:

On the more optimistic note, new Ukraninan president Victor Yanukovich, propelled to power by voters from more Russia-oriented Eastern Ukraine, promised to renew lease of the Sevastopol naval base to the Russian Black Sea Fleet, move, which can preserve 30th battery well into 21st century.

Edited by Octoposse on Wednesday 26th August 14:39

[scherzkeks]

Zod said:

You studied a theory and that makes you an authority on world events?

It certainly helps.

[Octoposse]

Zod said:

At least you admit that it was about self-preservation by Putin.

Well, yes, although I'd use the term political reality, or, more poetically:

Captain Jack Sparrow said:

The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.

More pragmatically, if we did get 'regime change' in Moscow, even ignoring how swimmingly that's gone elsewhere, it's reasonably clear that in these circumstances Russians would on the whole want Putin replaced by someone more, not less, willing to take a stand.

You also imply that shaping EU/UK/US foreign policy in the light of realities is somehow a bad thing . .

[scherzkeks]

Nikolai Petroff said:

I actually know people who went to both Maidans. Not one received a single dollar for their efforts.

Nope, just a few sandwiches from the US Assistant Secretary of State.

Not a bad deal for standing around while Academi and the skinheads handled the bloody stuff.

[JagLover]

Zod said:

What is it with Putin apologists in the West? The man is a gangster. There is nothing whatsoever to admire about him.

I have sympathy for him because I regard the West's message about lines on a map as being sacrosanct as being beneath contempt.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of history knows how arbitrary many of these borders are. Do you think the borders of the Ukraine and Russia were set by a democratic process of local referenda?

It was Russia that conquered the Crimea from the Crimean Tarters not "Ukrainians", and over time it became settled with Russians.

Earlier on it was also Russia that secured many of the lands in Eastern Ukraine from attack from the various descendants of the Golden Horde and the Crimean Tarters. These lands were usually EMPTY upon conquest so depopulated had the region been by Horde raids. They were then settled by a mixture of Russians and Ruthenians.

[Elroy Blue]

Russia Inadvertently Posts Its Casualties In Ukraine: 2,000 Deaths, 3,200 Disabled


http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/20...

(I'm sure they were all on holiday and forget to hand in their tanks when they went)

[Nikolai Petroff]

Octoposse said:

Edited by Octoposse on Wednesday 26th August 14:39

You think Russia has any less far right idiots? At least in Ukraine people from Africa are not advised to stay home on April 20th.

The main reason Ukraine actively uses them in the fight against the separatists is that the alternative is have sit idly in the rear, getting up to mischief. At least in combat their numbers get smaller. Very cynical, but also kinda understandable. Far right is less popular in Ukraine than it is in Greece for example and nobody accuses Greece of being overrun by Nazis.

[Nikolai Petroff]

scherzkeks said:

Nope, just a few sandwiches from the US Assistant Secretary of State.

Not a bad deal for standing around while Academi and the skinheads handled the bloody stuff.

I believe it was cookies, not sandwiches :-) Also the Illuminati Zionists were involved. Some guy in a basement told me so.

[Nikolai Petroff]

JagLover said:

I have sympathy for him because I regard the West's message about lines on a map as being sacrosanct as being beneath contempt.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of history knows how arbitrary many of these borders are. Do you think the borders of the Ukraine and Russia were set by a democratic process of local referenda?

It was Russia that conquered the Crimea from the Crimean Tarters not "Ukrainians", and over time it became settled with Russians.

Earlier on it was also Russia that secured many of the lands in Eastern Ukraine from attack from the various descendants of the Golden Horde and the Crimean Tarters. These lands were usually EMPTY upon conquest so depopulated had the region been by Horde raids. They were then settled by a mixture of Russians and Ruthenians.

What would you say if Norway begins to send operatives with arms and explosives into Isle of Man and then begins complaining in the UN that the UK does not respect the will of the electorate? While it is true that a slight majority of Crimean population wanted to join Russia, Russia itself guaranteed Ukraine's borders back in the 90's. That's why Ukraine gave up it's nuclear arsenal.

[Octoposse]

Nikolai Petroff said:

Far right is less popular in Ukraine than it is in Greece for example and nobody accuses Greece of being overrun by Nazis.

In Greece they haven't paticipated in a putsch and the overthrow of an elected government . .

Edited by Octoposse on Wednesday 26th August 20:19

[scherzkeks]

Nikolai Petroff said:

I believe it was cookies, not sandwiches :-) Also the Illuminati Zionists were involved. Some guy in a basement told me so.

Sounds about as plausible as anything else you've posted.

[skyrover]

Didn't take you long to drag your arse into here eh scherkeks?

For a supposed American, your loathing of your country is a bit tragic, no?

Anyhow...

Some interesting news from Russia. It appears they have accidentally posted their causalities in East Ukraine online.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/20...

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

For a supposed American, your loathing of your country is a bit tragic, no?

Only your type. Fly-over state material and all.

[skyrover]

I actually laughed at that one...

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

I actually laughed at that one...

Your brothers in arms liked it, too.

[Zod]

Who shot down MH17, scherzeks?

[DMN]

Agreesive NATO expansion shot it down commrade.

[johnfm]

Russia not involved at all in Ukraine...oh no, no military involvement whatsoever...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the...

[Nikolai Petroff]

scherzkeks said:

Your brothers in arms liked it, too.

Have you any idea about the number of neo-nazis on the Russian side? I'am from Moscow myself. Let me tell you, the amount of racial violence in Russia is WAY more than Ukraine. I used to live near the Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow. They all but shut down on April 20th. Yes, there are far right groups in Ukraine. No they are not the majority (less then 2% support if that). Yes the Ukrainian government cynically uses them to fight Russian terrorists hoping to A. Keep them busy and B. Have them killed / numbers reduced.

[scherzkeks]

Nikolai Petroff said:

Have you any idea about the number of neo-nazis on the Russian side? I'am from Moscow myself. Let me tell you, the amount of racial violence in Russia is WAY more than Ukraine.

Compelling argument, as usual. Way more? Or way, way, way more?

Nikolai Petroff said:

Yes the Ukrainian government cynically uses them to fight

Yes, we know this.