4000 people die within 6 weeks of being deemed "Fit to Work"
Discussion
NicD said:
mph, since you seem to know this area, what is your take on the changes? Do you support them, is it the implementation that is lacking or ...?
the biggest problem has been the agitation from the magic money tree brigade and the pity based approach of many on the left towards those with disability and chronic health conditions ... once that started ATOS had a s
t sandwich - they were struggling to get Health Professionals as it was and once the st flinging got started more and more people who might work for them either didn;t want the hassle from their leftie mates or were excluded becasue they had previous professional disciplinary allegations ( which ATOS put as a blatant don;t even bother applying part of their role description - unlike the NHS and the vast majority of other Private employers of HCPs) - the latter often excluding those with lived experience of disability or chronic health conditions ... mph1977 said:
spaximus said:
Regardless of the headlines, which if there is a number of deaths that were a direct result of these measure are true, we can assume it is those operating the policy that are at fault, not the intention to weed people out.
The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
there is not a 'one size fits all ' system The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
it might help if you actually understood the criteria for applying for ESA , the crtieria for Work Related Activities Group and the criteria for the Support Group , this is before considering the abilities based approach that Occupational health Provision takes in well run businesses.
It might also help if you realise that many of those the left are claiming were found ' fit for work ' ( by the DWP not the Examination provider by the way) were actually placed in the Work Related Activities Group - rather than sent to JSA.
unfortunately some groups within the wider disability / people with chronic conditions community seem to be totally unprepared for the fact that a lot of people are fit for some work ... and are happy to wallow i nthe pity based approach of the left rather than the enablement approach adopted by other sub groups within the disability community ....
we'll leave hte somatic / functional overlay issues and the strongly somatic conditions aside here for the moment.
DLA /PIP is a totally seperate kettle of worms
As you have pointed out it appears that there are differing levels of disability so is the problem now that the system is too harsh and as the left say poor disabled people are being forced back to work, or is it trying to get malingerers off top rate benefits and down to JSA?
I certainly know of one person who tells everyone she is disabled and too fat to work, no other reasons other than she eats too much, all the time.
glazbagun said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/over...
1300 of whom died after appeal.
Good headline aside, what can be extrapolated from this? What percentage of those found fit to work do the 4000 represent and how does this percentage compare to those who die every day? This could be a really important news story but the information just isn't in the article for us to make any judgement on wether the DWP have done a great or abysmal job.
A quick google says half a million people die in the UK each year, these 4000 have died over appx 2.5 years. Dodgy maths says that's ~0.3% of total UK deaths being people who had been signed off as fit to work by the DWP. But the total includes everything from falling down stairs to dying in your bed at 105.
Am I missing something, articles says "But the statistics, released on the order of the Government’s transparency watchdog, show that between December 2011 and February 2014, 2,380 people died after their Work Capability Assessment told them they should start looking for work."1300 of whom died after appeal.
Good headline aside, what can be extrapolated from this? What percentage of those found fit to work do the 4000 represent and how does this percentage compare to those who die every day? This could be a really important news story but the information just isn't in the article for us to make any judgement on wether the DWP have done a great or abysmal job.
A quick google says half a million people die in the UK each year, these 4000 have died over appx 2.5 years. Dodgy maths says that's ~0.3% of total UK deaths being people who had been signed off as fit to work by the DWP. But the total includes everything from falling down stairs to dying in your bed at 105.
Now I dont have a PhD in mathematics or nuffink like that, but isn't that about 22 a week, over 6 weeks is 122, so where does the 4000 come from?
spaximus said:
mph1977 said:
spaximus said:
Regardless of the headlines, which if there is a number of deaths that were a direct result of these measure are true, we can assume it is those operating the policy that are at fault, not the intention to weed people out.
The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
there is not a 'one size fits all ' system The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
it might help if you actually understood the criteria for applying for ESA , the crtieria for Work Related Activities Group and the criteria for the Support Group , this is before considering the abilities based approach that Occupational health Provision takes in well run businesses.
It might also help if you realise that many of those the left are claiming were found ' fit for work ' ( by the DWP not the Examination provider by the way) were actually placed in the Work Related Activities Group - rather than sent to JSA.
unfortunately some groups within the wider disability / people with chronic conditions community seem to be totally unprepared for the fact that a lot of people are fit for some work ... and are happy to wallow i nthe pity based approach of the left rather than the enablement approach adopted by other sub groups within the disability community ....
we'll leave hte somatic / functional overlay issues and the strongly somatic conditions aside here for the moment.
DLA /PIP is a totally seperate kettle of worms
As you have pointed out it appears that there are differing levels of disability so is the problem now that the system is too harsh and as the left say poor disabled people are being forced back to work, or is it trying to get malingerers off top rate benefits and down to JSA?
I certainly know of one person who tells everyone she is disabled and too fat to work, no other reasons other than she eats too much, all the time.
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