Trucks to be banned from turning left

[sleep envy]

otolith said:

There is a suggestion that the construction traffic management plan for large projects will take account of the risk construction traffic poses to cyclists when planning the specified routes. That's it.

They already did for the large construction projects on Old Street Roundabout.

Islington wanted the CTMP agreed before construction could begin as a condition for consent and argued the case to minimise site traffic turning left.

[valiant]

desolate said:

But how will all the fkwits get their daily outrage if the press only print the actual truth?

At least the link wasn't the Daily Mail this time, although it was one of the regular fkwit fogeys sharing their moronic morning reading schedule.

Edited by desolate on Wednesday 2nd September 12:10

To be fair, the Evening Standard is basically the London edition of the Daily Mail nowadays.

Pity, used to be a decent rag.

[Dr Murdoch]

iambeowulf said:

It's also bks.
That truck will have a mandatory reversing camera. The driver can see the people on his left and some of the people, if not all, in front. He'll only not see them if they are literally under the window.

It's not accurate at all.

Most accidents are driver/rider error not what can or can't be seen from the cab.

And you are qualified to make such a bold statement, how?

Mandatory reversing cameras?

The blind spots are very real, if you are behind a double decker bus you can see through the top rear window but not the lower one.

See out of the left window?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1aSvoIpVss

"Most accidents are driver/rider error not what can or can't be seen from the cab"

Its not black or white. If more cyclists were aware of the blind spots that HGV's have then I'm sure less cyclists would be involved in accidents involving HGV's.

However, I will concede you will always get idiots, be it on two wheels or driving an HGV.

Edited by Dr Murdoch on Wednesday 2nd September 13:57

[Finlandia]

Dr Murdoch said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1aSvoIpVss

The bike is most likely totally hidden behind the LHS mirrors, driver checked the mirrors to see if anyone was coming up on the left and the bike was hidden behind the mirrors.

[Dr Murdoch]

Finlandia said:

The bike is most likely totally hidden behind the LHS mirrors, driver checked the mirrors to see if anyone was coming up on the left and the bike was hidden behind the mirrors.

Indeed, mostly hidden by mirrors, part by A frame, part by cab.

But its a good demonstration of the massive blackspots that HGV's have.

Edited by Dr Murdoch on Wednesday 2nd September 13:58

[Finlandia]

Dr Murdoch said:

Finlandia said:

The bike is most likely totally hidden behind the LHS mirrors, driver checked the mirrors to see if anyone was coming up on the left and the bike was hidden behind the mirrors.

Indeed, mostly hidden by mirrors, part by A frame, part by cab.

But its a good demonstration of massive blackspots that HGV's have.

Yes, and as I said earlier, it's made worse by the driver being strapped to the seatbelt and unable to position himself to have a clearer view.

[Dr Murdoch]

Finlandia said:

Yes, and as I said earlier, it's made worse by the driver being strapped to the seatbelt and unable to position himself to have a clearer view.

Sorry if I didn't acknowledge the point earlier but I agree

[RYH64E]

Dr Murdoch said:

Finlandia said:

The bike is most likely totally hidden behind the LHS mirrors, driver checked the mirrors to see if anyone was coming up on the left and the bike was hidden behind the mirrors.

Indeed, mostly hidden by mirrors, part by A frame, part by cab.

But its a good demonstration of massive blackspots that HGV's have.

If HGV drivers can't see other road users, road users who are legitimately using the road, wouldn't that suggest that the vehicle isn't fit for purpose? It's not the driver's fault, he or she shouldn't be expected to drive into a space that they don't know to be clear, nor should they have to rely on cyclists having an in depth knowledge of HGV blindspots.

[roachcoach]

When did we stop teaching "If you can't the driver, he can't see you?" you don't need a bloody manual of the blind spots.

Honestly.

[Dr Murdoch]

RYH64E said:

If HGV drivers can't see other road users, road users who are legitimately using the road, wouldn't that suggest that the vehicle isn't fit for purpose? It's not the driver's fault, he or she shouldn't be expected to drive into a space that they don't know to be clear, nor should they have to rely on cyclists having an in depth knowledge of HGV blindspots.

I agree, the most likely solution will be a change in cab design, but this will take time.

A bit like this...

[Dr Murdoch]

roachcoach said:

When did we stop teaching "If you can't the driver, he can't see you?" you don't need a bloody manual of the blind spots.

Honestly.

Its one of the same though

Driver can't see you = blind spot (no manual required )

[Finlandia]

RYH64E said:

Dr Murdoch said:

Finlandia said:

The bike is most likely totally hidden behind the LHS mirrors, driver checked the mirrors to see if anyone was coming up on the left and the bike was hidden behind the mirrors.

Indeed, mostly hidden by mirrors, part by A frame, part by cab.

But its a good demonstration of massive blackspots that HGV's have.

If HGV drivers can't see other road users, road users who are legitimately using the road, wouldn't that suggest that the vehicle isn't fit for purpose? It's not the driver's fault, he or she shouldn't be expected to drive into a space that they don't know to be clear, nor should they have to rely on cyclists having an in depth knowledge of HGV blindspots.

You don't have to have an in depth knowledge, simple common sense is all it takes, if you can't see the driver in the mirrors or in a straight line, he can't see you.

[RYH64E]

Finlandia said:

You don't have to have an in depth knowledge, simple common sense is all it takes, if you can't see the driver in the mirrors or in a straight line, he can't see you.

Common sense isn't actually very common, I suspect that a significant percentage of cyclists, expecially young cyclists and cyclists who don't drive a car, have absolutely no idea about HGV blindspots.

[walm]

Esseesse said:

Exactly, overtake on the right. I used to cycle a lot, not much sympathy for these cyclists.

How did you magically stop vehicles overtaking you?

The phrase "left hook" typically means that the HGV has attempted an overtake but not completed it before turning left and crushing the cyclist.

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS6R2-9NSsA
Look at the brompton rider at 0.18.

[Finlandia]

RYH64E said:

Finlandia said:

You don't have to have an in depth knowledge, simple common sense is all it takes, if you can't see the driver in the mirrors or in a straight line, he can't see you.

Common sense isn't actually very common, I suspect that a significant percentage of cyclists, expecially young cyclists and cyclists who don't drive a car, have absolutely no idea about HGV blindspots.

This is sadly true, and instead of teaching people common sense, we ban everything. What is needed is some ad and billboard campaign that makes the road users aware of the dangers, it works for the most part when it comes to trains and undergrounds so shouldn't be that difficult.

[walm]

Finlandia said:

What is needed is some ad and billboard campaign that makes the road users aware of the dangers...

You mean something like this (from 2010):

[RYH64E]

Finlandia said:

RYH64E said:

Finlandia said:

You don't have to have an in depth knowledge, simple common sense is all it takes, if you can't see the driver in the mirrors or in a straight line, he can't see you.

Common sense isn't actually very common, I suspect that a significant percentage of cyclists, expecially young cyclists and cyclists who don't drive a car, have absolutely no idea about HGV blindspots.

This is sadly true, and instead of teaching people common sense, we ban everything. What is needed is some ad and billboard campaign that makes the road users aware of the dangers, it works for the most part when it comes to trains and undergrounds so shouldn't be that difficult.

I would say that what's needed is a design that enables HGV drivers to check that there's nothing in the way before turning left (or right, or reversing). It's ludicrous that in this day and age a driver is expected to turn into a space without being able to check whether it's clear or not, and having to rely on cyclists knowing that they're likely to get crushed if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even my road car has a camera that operates when I'm reversing, and proximity sensors as parking aids, how hard can it be to retrofit such systems to HGV cabs?

My daughter is learning to drive at the moment, I keep stressing to her that when she's driving she's responsible for making sure that a manouevre is safe, usually this is in the context of not taking advice from whoever happens to be in the passenger seat (passengers telling me it's all clear is a bugbear of mine, if I'm driving I'll decide if it's clear or not) but the same applies in this case. It's the driver's responsibility to ensure that a manouevre is safe or not, and he/she needs to be given the tools to take that decision.

[Esseesse]

walm said:

Esseesse said:

Exactly, overtake on the right. I used to cycle a lot, not much sympathy for these cyclists.

How did you magically stop vehicles overtaking you?

The phrase "left hook" typically means that the HGV has attempted an overtake but not completed it before turning left and crushing the cyclist.

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS6R2-9NSsA
Look at the brompton rider at 0.18.

If the HGV has overtaken you when you're already at the lights then the driver knows you're there. You should probably not allow this to happen though so you may need to cycle defensively by getting out of the gutter and positioning yourself to use your side of the road, so drivers can only get past when it's suitable to do so. The highway code says they should leave the room a car would need anyway.

[Impasse]

I was up in the east of that there London yesterday and on my short stroll to the Tube a flatbed turned left in front of me, heading down a side street. When the indicators were on a metallic voice announced that the lorry was about to turn left, in a similar manner to the "Warning Vehicle Reversing" declarations.

Not in any way a complete solution, but a helpful addition until familiarity robs it of any positive effect.

[SpeckledJim]

gifdy said:

Dr Murdoch said:

Further to my previous (abrubt) post

Cyclists often position themselves at the stop line at junctions, unsurprisingly as they are encouraged to do so, however by doing so they unwittingly put themselves in one of a HGV's many blind spots.



So they are at risk from HGV's going straight on and right.

Wow, that picture highlights the problem well. Cyclists should be far more aware of their own vulnerability but, if an HGV has that many blind spots, it has no place in a built up urban area.

How do you create a built-up urban area without HGVs then?

The problem is 90% cyclists placing their safety in the hands of people who may or may not know they are there (and may or may not care.)