Trucks to be banned from turning left

[colonel c]

Driver is a dick but why did the cyclist not use the big empty cycle lane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h6x4z-OwbI#t=35.8...

[walm]

roachcoach said:

Drivers can do their best, but the people who can actually prevent 100% of these events are the guys on bikes.

AGAIN - please explain how you prevent an HGV overtaking you and left hooking?

[SpeckledJim]

walm said:

roachcoach said:

Drivers can do their best, but the people who can actually prevent 100% of these events are the guys on bikes.

AGAIN - please explain how you prevent an HGV overtaking you and left hooking?

You can't prevent it - it's the driver's fault.

But you can ameliorate the horrible consequences to you of the driver's mistake by being ready to turn left with him. That might mean going slower, and being wide awake.

[otolith]

colonel c said:

Driver is a dick but why did the cyclist not use the big empty cycle lane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h6x4z-OwbI#t=35.8...

This is the previous junction - I guess he would rather be doing a steady 20mph on the road, where he is entitled to be, than coming to a halt on the pavement in order to give way at the pedestrian crossing.

[iambeowulf]

Dr Murdoch said:

iambeowulf said:

It's also bks.
That truck will have a mandatory reversing camera. The driver can see the people on his left and some of the people, if not all, in front. He'll only not see them if they are literally under the window.

It's not accurate at all.

Most accidents are driver/rider error not what can or can't be seen from the cab.

And you are qualified to make such a bold statement, how?

Mandatory reversing cameras?

The blind spots are very real, if you are behind a double decker bus you can see through the top rear window but not the lower one.

See out of the left window?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1aSvoIpVss

"Most accidents are driver/rider error not what can or can't be seen from the cab"

Its not black or white. If more cyclists were aware of the blind spots that HGV's have then I'm sure less cyclists would be involved in accidents involving HGV's.

However, I will concede you will always get idiots, be it on two wheels or driving an HGV.

Edited by Dr Murdoch on Wednesday 2nd September 13:57

35 years driving HGV's (LGV) articulated and rigid ,12 years CPC holder (as in logistics business not the new driver CPC) and five years training drivers on tipper wagons (the one in the picture).

So yes. Quite qualified thanks.

[roachcoach]

walm said:

roachcoach said:

Drivers can do their best, but the people who can actually prevent 100% of these events are the guys on bikes.

AGAIN - please explain how you prevent an HGV overtaking you and left hooking?

A mk1 eyeball - is is slowing? Is it indicating? Is there a junction? Has a similar truck just turned? Hell she's a big fker, they can't slam it round the corner on two wheels - it telegraphs the movement. So situational awareness and your own brakes - knowing your surroundings helps too - Do I have somewhere to go if this drifts? Am I blocked in, if so I should put myself somewhere else, usually by braking.

It's not a practise limited to HGVs, vans, buses and cars do it too and cars are actually worst because they CAN corner aggressively.

I don't understand why it's so hard, I really, really don't.

[RYH64E]

SpeckledJim said:

RYH64E said:

I thought that one of the basic rules of driving was don't proceed unless you know it's safe to do so, not proceed anyway and hope that there isn't a cyclist in the (very large) blind spot.

There is no way to go from stopped to moving in an HGV and be sure it's safe. The only way to check your nearside blind spot is to stick your head out of the nearside window. By the time you've climbed back to your seat, you don't know if the situation has changed.

Cyclists need to look after themselves, because drivers are all some mixture of can't and won't.

In this day and age I'm surprised that that's considered acceptable. I can't think of any industrial situation where a factory inspector would let an equivalent machine to be used if the factory manager said something along the lines of 'There is no way to go from stopped to moving in an HGV and be sure it's safe'. The factory would be closed down and if there was an accident resulting in death the Directors would find themselves in a lot of trouble.

[Antony Moxey]

roachcoach said:

walm said:

roachcoach said:

Drivers can do their best, but the people who can actually prevent 100% of these events are the guys on bikes.

AGAIN - please explain how you prevent an HGV overtaking you and left hooking?

A mk1 eyeball - is is slowing? Is it indicating? Is there a junction? Has a similar truck just turned? Hell she's a big fker, they can't slam it round the corner on two wheels - it telegraphs the movement. So situational awareness and your own brakes - knowing your surroundings helps too - Do I have somewhere to go if this drifts? Am I blocked in, if so I should put myself somewhere else, usually by braking.

It's not a practise limited to HGVs, vans, buses and cars do it too and cars are actually worst because they CAN corner aggressively.

I don't understand why it's so hard, I really, really don't.

And what if you've got there first, and are already waiting at the lights when a truck pulls up beside you? You make it sound as though all cyclists are at fault and all truck drivers are knights of the road.

It does happen that cyclists are left hooked by trucks that arrive at the lights after a cyclist and still turn left so how, as a cyclist already there on a clear road with thin air one side and a set of railings the other, do you 'put yourself somewhere else' when a truck pulls up beside you?

[walm]

Antony Moxey said:

You make it sound as though all cyclists are at fault and all truck drivers are knights of the road.

That's not fair. Let's be clear.
What he is saying is that even if the truck driver is drunk, blind, asleep at the wheel or just hasn't bothered to look, it is STILL the cyclist's fault.

There is no need for the HGV driver to be a knight of the road - why should they bother? The cyclist can avoid trouble 100% of the time.

It's not hard, it really isn't hard.

[roachcoach]

Antony Moxey said:

roachcoach said:

walm said:

roachcoach said:

Drivers can do their best, but the people who can actually prevent 100% of these events are the guys on bikes.

AGAIN - please explain how you prevent an HGV overtaking you and left hooking?

A mk1 eyeball - is is slowing? Is it indicating? Is there a junction? Has a similar truck just turned? Hell she's a big fker, they can't slam it round the corner on two wheels - it telegraphs the movement. So situational awareness and your own brakes - knowing your surroundings helps too - Do I have somewhere to go if this drifts? Am I blocked in, if so I should put myself somewhere else, usually by braking.

It's not a practise limited to HGVs, vans, buses and cars do it too and cars are actually worst because they CAN corner aggressively.

I don't understand why it's so hard, I really, really don't.

And what if you've got there first, and are already waiting at the lights when a truck pulls up beside you? You make it sound as though all cyclists are at fault and all truck drivers are knights of the road.

It does happen that cyclists are left hooked by trucks that arrive at the lights after a cyclist and still turn left so how, as a cyclist already there on a clear road with thin air one side and a set of railings the other, do you 'put yourself somewhere else' when a truck pulls up beside you?

You mistake me or at least my point.

Whose fault it was is of exactly no use to a dead guy.

The person with the greatest ability to ensure their own safety is the cyclist. Without exception.

With regard to your example, there are filter lanes at the start of the junction in my city - they should be in there so the truck can see them and they get in front of it clear at the lights. If they are too far back for that then they can let the truck clear them or hang back so it wont roll over them. Or hell the can roll back a couple of feet, are those precious few seconds worth their life?

I view my safety as my own personal responsibility and no-one elses when I'm on the road. I always assume worst case, I will NEVER pass a junction without having looked behind me beforehand to check for traffic potentially turning which may not have seen me, for example. That attitude keeps me alive and well. Never put your life in someone elses hands who might not even know you're there.

[Dr Murdoch]

iambeowulf said:

35 years driving HGV's (LGV) articulated and rigid ,12 years CPC holder (as in logistics business not the new driver CPC) and five years training drivers on tipper wagons (the one in the picture).

So yes. Quite qualified thanks.

Then I am even more puzzled with your response.

Mandatory reversing cameras? Since when are they mandatory?

The blind spots are very real, maybe not in the cabs you've driven, but they sure exist in the ones I have driven / studied as part of my job (road safety engineering / road safety auditing).

[roachcoach]

SpeckledJim said:

walm said:

roachcoach said:

Drivers can do their best, but the people who can actually prevent 100% of these events are the guys on bikes.

AGAIN - please explain how you prevent an HGV overtaking you and left hooking?

You can't prevent it - it's the driver's fault.

But you can ameliorate the horrible consequences to you of the driver's mistake by being ready to turn left with him. That might mean going slower, and being wide awake.

I missed this. Basically this, yes.

Even a perfect driver can make a mistake, or do the right thing - he might be swerving a kid who ran out for example, he might have had a seizure at the wheel. The cause doesn't really matter much, not to the person he may - or may not (depending on their actions and awareness) hit.

Hell it's the same principle as leaving a gap between yourself and the car in front - you've no idea if they're gonna drop anchor for a random reason or not.

[creampuff]

RYH64E said:

In this day and age I'm surprised that that's considered acceptable. I can't think of any industrial situation where a factory inspector would let an equivalent machine to be used if the factory manager said something along the lines of 'There is no way to go from stopped to moving in an HGV and be sure it's safe'. The factory would be closed down and if there was an accident resulting in death the Directors would find themselves in a lot of trouble.

You will find that all factories operate machinery on this premise. The basic premise is that reasonable safety precautions are taken. Infact safety precautions are taken to cover events well over and above what could be considered just "reasonable".

What can never be made safe is to eliminate incidents from idiots who either deliberately or because of a total, total lack of sense put themselves in danger. If you are looking for factory analogies, then the analogy would be you check a machine is clear, but you don't notice somebody hiding behind it, despite signs warning of the danger, then deliberately shoving their hand in some moving parts just before you start it up.

I've even seen cyclists cycle into a closing gap on the left hand side of a lorry which has actually started turning left! That is just fundamentally stupid and there is only so much you can do to legislate or take account for stupid.

[colonel c]

otolith said:

- I guess he would rather be doing a steady 20mph on the road, where he is entitled to be, than coming to a halt on the pavement in order to give way at the pedestrian crossing.

Therein lies the problem with many of today's 'lycra warrior' type of cyclist. As vehicular drivers we have to accept that progress is often hindered by traffic dysentery road conditions etc. All too often in cycling threads I read that some cyclists don't like using cycle lanes because of the poor surface, pedestrians, other cyclists etc 'hold them up'. It like they expect to have God given right not to have to acquiesce to any thing or person that gets in their way.

[oyster]

There's some seriously ill-thought comments on this thread.

1. Filtering on the right is often less safe than on the left. Right hook, left hook - there's little difference. In fact drivers don't expect cyclists to pass on the right, so they use their mirror even less when turning right than left in towns/cities.

2. Safeguarding one's own life is of course a personal responsibility, and being aware that an HGV is less squishy than a cyclist is critical. But cyclist deaths are a societal issue these days, so action will be taken. Like it or not (and even as a cyclist I think the danger is exaggerated), cyclist safety is front page news. The only part of the establishment not aligned to this yet is the judiciary.

3. People who think cost of construction is more important than human lives - just wow.

4. Cycle lanes. Not again please. Cyclists have a choice of whether to use them or not. Just as I have choice to drive on the A25 or the M25.

[SpeckledJim]

otolith said:

- I guess he would rather be doing a steady 20mph on the road, where he is entitled to be, than coming to a halt on the pavement in order to give way at the pedestrian crossing.

There is the issue.

I am entitled to use that patch of road. Now you must support my taking the riskier choice and help keep me safe.

I have safer options, I know, but I am entitled to ignore them and share that bit of road there. With the 40-tonners with the poor visibility. They will see me and keep out of my way.

[otolith]

colonel c said:

otolith said:

- I guess he would rather be doing a steady 20mph on the road, where he is entitled to be, than coming to a halt on the pavement in order to give way at the pedestrian crossing.

Therein lies the problem with many of today's 'lycra warrior' type of cyclist. As vehicular drivers we have to accept that progress is often hindered by traffic dysentery road conditions etc. All too often in cycling threads I read that some cyclists don't like using cycle lanes because of the poor surface, pedestrians, other cyclists etc 'hold them up'. It like they expect to have God given right not to have to acquiesce to any thing or person that gets in their way.

No, no, they are just choosing to use the more appropriate of the two facilities offered to them. Same way that one might choose a motorway route or a B-road route in the car depending whether out for a leisurely potter or trying to get from A to B efficiently.

I think you are probably labouring under the misapprehension that cycle facilities are there to get bikes out of your way. They aren't.

[walm]

colonel c said:

It like they expect to have God given right not to have to acquiesce to any thing or person that gets in their way.

Not really.
They just like to take the road they have every LEGAL right to use.

Just like you might want to take the scenic route.

All I ever read on cycling threads is hypocritical impatient morons behind the wheel who can't cope overtaking a thin slow moving object without soiling themselves.

[RYH64E]

creampuff said:

RYH64E said:

In this day and age I'm surprised that that's considered acceptable. I can't think of any industrial situation where a factory inspector would let an equivalent machine to be used if the factory manager said something along the lines of 'There is no way to go from stopped to moving in an HGV and be sure it's safe'. The factory would be closed down and if there was an accident resulting in death the Directors would find themselves in a lot of trouble.

You will find that all factories operate machinery on this premise. The basic premise is that reasonable safety precautions are taken. Infact safety precautions are taken to cover events well over and above what could be considered just "reasonable".

What can never be made safe is to eliminate incidents from idiots who either deliberately or because of a total, total lack of sense put themselves in danger. If you are looking for factory analogies, then the analogy would be you check a machine is clear, but you don't notice somebody hiding behind it, despite signs warning of the danger, then deliberately shoving their hand in some moving parts just before you start it up.

I've even seen cyclists cycle into a closing gap on the left hand side of a lorry which has actually started turning left! That is just fundamentally stupid and there is only so much you can do to legislate or take account for stupid.

From reading earlier posts people are saying that there's no way a truck driver can possibly know if it's clear or not, whether it's safe to proceed or not. Even if they look, check their mirrors, check again, substantial blind spots mean that they can't be sure that the road is clear. It's not a case of checking that the road is clear then someone jumping into the gap, they can't check that the road is clear beacuase their vision is obstructed. And as for warning signs, there aren't any. All there is in many cases is a piece of road coloured blue with a picture of a bike printed on it, that hardly indicates 'Danger, keep out' to an inexperienced biker.

[roachcoach]

walm said:

colonel c said:

It like they expect to have God given right not to have to acquiesce to any thing or person that gets in their way.

Not really.
They just like to take the road they have every LEGAL right to use.

Just like you might want to take the scenic route.

All I ever read on cycling threads is hypocritical impatient morons behind the wheel who can't cope overtaking a thin slow moving object without soiling themselves.

See this is part of the problem, the whole "us and them" attitude.

I cycle thousands of miles a year and I have none of these problems despite rolling around a city centre in rush hour regularly. Never had a car sound its horn at me, countless have nodded/waved thanks at me as well as had a number of apologies from drivers who dived out in front of me without having looked - and here's the key part - I just nod/wave/smile in acknowledgement that mistakes happen and get on with my day instead of turning into an ahole. I've actually facepalmed (literally) at more bikes than I have cars.

I'm not a magician, I just have a good attitude to it, if you think my relationship with traffic is luck, I have a bridge to sell you.