Tuition Fees: England vs Germany
Discussion
Martin 480 Turbo said:
Take a look here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_syste...
The German educational system is fundamentaly different from the british.
It is quiet usual that a teen chooses an apprenticeship first (for about 3 years), only
to do some further studies later. So 27% going into higher education after school is not fully comparable to british figures.
Those apprenticeships are combined with wide spanning academic education in vocational schools, resulting in young people having irl experience combined with theoretical knowledge that makes them superior to the ones who have "only" done a bachelors degree, from an employers point of view. (This is why every fulltime student over here really strives to do a master thesis.)
Only backside I can see is that the system a little more costly for the companies and the state but it looks like it pays of in the long run.
Thanks for the additional info. Interesting stuff.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_syste...
The German educational system is fundamentaly different from the british.
It is quiet usual that a teen chooses an apprenticeship first (for about 3 years), only
to do some further studies later. So 27% going into higher education after school is not fully comparable to british figures.
Those apprenticeships are combined with wide spanning academic education in vocational schools, resulting in young people having irl experience combined with theoretical knowledge that makes them superior to the ones who have "only" done a bachelors degree, from an employers point of view. (This is why every fulltime student over here really strives to do a master thesis.)
Only backside I can see is that the system a little more costly for the companies and the state but it looks like it pays of in the long run.
youngsyr said:
mcbook said:
AJS- said:
I suspect it's more to do with Germany having a fairly good apprenticeship system that has been established for a long time rather than the price incentives.
Although I never mentioned this in the post, it was on my mind. Germany are very successful with apprenticeships but they seem to do them properly with rigorous standards and 'blue-collar' work still having a certain prestige that it seems to have lost in the UK.I would much rather my kids chose to do a decent apprenticeship rather than opted for a questionable degree at a lesser university.
The failing of our education system, particularly under New Labour, was this idea that higher education should be pursued by all. Some simply are not cut out for it and there should be no shame in the education system equipping them with the relevant skills to go on and carve out a career in the trades or even by working up through the professional ranks.
I wonder whether much of the behavioural trouble at schools could be stemmed if these kids are caught early and made to feel worthwhile. As it stands they must know they're not cut out for university yet made to feel like failures because that's seen as the required path for everyone to take - it's easy to see how they then might just feel like it's not worth bothering at all.
Swervin_Mervin said:
youngsyr said:
mcbook said:
AJS- said:
I suspect it's more to do with Germany having a fairly good apprenticeship system that has been established for a long time rather than the price incentives.
Although I never mentioned this in the post, it was on my mind. Germany are very successful with apprenticeships but they seem to do them properly with rigorous standards and 'blue-collar' work still having a certain prestige that it seems to have lost in the UK.I would much rather my kids chose to do a decent apprenticeship rather than opted for a questionable degree at a lesser university.
The failing of our education system, particularly under New Labour, was this idea that higher education should be pursued by all. Some simply are not cut out for it and there should be no shame in the education system equipping them with the relevant skills to go on and carve out a career in the trades or even by working up through the professional ranks.
I wonder whether much of the behavioural trouble at schools could be stemmed if these kids are caught early and made to feel worthwhile. As it stands they must know they're not cut out for university yet made to feel like failures because that's seen as the required path for everyone to take - it's easy to see how they then might just feel like it's not worth bothering at all.
However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.
youngsyr said:
However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.
But it's not really a debt you need to worry about. It's a small additional tax you pay if your earnings meet the threshold. Its impact will be negligible because you pay it off so slowly, or in some cases not at all (either because you stay in low-paid work or move abroad). It's nothing like a loan from a bank. It wouldn't stop me from applying.Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.
Bluebarge said:
youngsyr said:
However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.
But it's not really a debt you need to worry about. It's a small additional tax you pay if your earnings meet the threshold. Its impact will be negligible because you pay it off so slowly, or in some cases not at all (either because you stay in low-paid work or move abroad). It's nothing like a loan from a bank. It wouldn't stop me from applying.Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.
It's 9% of everything you earn over £21k.
E.g. You earn £30k p.a., you'll pay £800 per year in student loan repayments, which doesn't even cover the interest on your outstanding £40k balance. So, you're not actually repaying the loan, just some of the interest, meaning you'll have to pay that £800 each and every year for 30 years until it's written off.
Still think it's nothing to worry about?
FredClogs said:
cptsideways said:
I think you will find Germany has a very high Technical/Engineering degree level as opposed to keeping youngsters off the streets liberal woolly education degrees.
You'll also find the quality of German creative industries, art output (including music), television output and general cultural richness rather staid. I'm an engineer and spend all day with other engineers, I'm quite glad of the woolly minded folk when I clock off.
youngsyr said:
Bluebarge said:
youngsyr said:
However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.
But it's not really a debt you need to worry about. It's a small additional tax you pay if your earnings meet the threshold. Its impact will be negligible because you pay it off so slowly, or in some cases not at all (either because you stay in low-paid work or move abroad). It's nothing like a loan from a bank. It wouldn't stop me from applying.Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.
It's 9% of everything you earn over £21k.
E.g. You earn £30k p.a., you'll pay £800 per year in student loan repayments, which doesn't even cover the interest on your outstanding £40k balance. So, you're not actually repaying the loan, just some of the interest, meaning you'll have to pay that £800 each and every year for 30 years until it's written off.
Still think it's nothing to worry about?
Bluebarge said:
youngsyr said:
Bluebarge said:
youngsyr said:
However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.
But it's not really a debt you need to worry about. It's a small additional tax you pay if your earnings meet the threshold. Its impact will be negligible because you pay it off so slowly, or in some cases not at all (either because you stay in low-paid work or move abroad). It's nothing like a loan from a bank. It wouldn't stop me from applying.Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.
It's 9% of everything you earn over £21k.
E.g. You earn £30k p.a., you'll pay £800 per year in student loan repayments, which doesn't even cover the interest on your outstanding £40k balance. So, you're not actually repaying the loan, just some of the interest, meaning you'll have to pay that £800 each and every year for 30 years until it's written off.
Still think it's nothing to worry about?
1) Some graduates will be on £30k forever - they will pay a total over £24k in repayments, equivalent to a year's take home pay.
2) Those graduates who do move up the pay grade will pay more as they earn more - it's 9% on everything above £21k, so the repayments grow as your earnings grow.
3) You have to earn £42k p.a. before your payments even start reducing the outstanding balance (and that's the day you leave uni, if you don't earn over £42k for several years after your graduation, the salary required will be significantly higher).
You're right about it being an additional tax though, I just wouldn't call £800 p.a. when you're on £30k "small" or "nothing to worry about".
Edited by youngsyr on Thursday 3rd September 21:28
Bluebarge said:
Axionknight said:
Just leave the country and take your qualifications elsewhere 
Exactly. Then tuition fees are zero.youngsyr said:
Sending so many young adults to university is also a very effective way of lowering youth and total unemployment figures, albeit with unknown long term consequences.
Plus it creates job at the universities (admin staff, lecturers, research, caterers, cleaners etc) as well as the local area (takeaways, night clubs, transport companies, retail).Sadly at the expense of students who are often sold a lie by their school career advisors who are unable to look beyond the "x% of our students go on to further education!" stats
youngsyr said:
Bluebarge said:
Axionknight said:
Just leave the country and take your qualifications elsewhere
Exactly. Then tuition fees are zero.youngsyr said:
I'm a classic red brick uni alumni and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it if the situation were the same as when I attended (1999-2002, £1k p.a. fees).
However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.
Agree, I think one of the ideas behind the £9k pa tuition fees was to bring some market rigour to people choosing courses. If I pay that much for a course and dedicate 3 years of my life to it, it had better be worth it. I'm surprised it hasn't had more of an impact to be honest, I really thought that some of the lower quality Universities would be closed by now and student numbers would be down.However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.
https://www.ucas.com/sites/default/files/2014-unde...
The linked 2014 UCAS report shows a slight downward blip in 2012, but admissions in 2014 were higher than ever.
Many if not most Unis in Germany are teaching courses in all disciplines in English. Not because they particularly want the Brits to turn up. They are planning to take a share of the international education market with the hope that they will reap the economic benefits later.
http://www.studying-in-germany.org/why-study-in-ge...
For example my Spanish half brother is doing a chemistry doctorate in English in Germany.
However Brits are not excluded and most Unis have subsidised student accommodation where foreigners generally have priority.
I have assisted foreign English speaking students from time to time including some Americans that did not plan to learn any German apart from ordering beer and ordering a hamburger. But they were s
t hot mathematicians!
http://www.studying-in-germany.org/why-study-in-ge...
For example my Spanish half brother is doing a chemistry doctorate in English in Germany.
However Brits are not excluded and most Unis have subsidised student accommodation where foreigners generally have priority.
I have assisted foreign English speaking students from time to time including some Americans that did not plan to learn any German apart from ordering beer and ordering a hamburger. But they were s
t hot mathematicians!It might be interesting to work out an hourly rate for the `lectures` you would be attending. It seems these stretch to as much as 10 hours a week for some students, with some of this alloted time being given the `fk off and find out` treatment, followed by a flip chart session.
Many local shops & supermarkets appear to be staffed round the clock by a succession of students following their dream, who then return for an indefinite period grasping their degree certificate.
k off and find out` treatment, followed by a flip chart session.Many local shops & supermarkets appear to be staffed round the clock by a succession of students following their dream, who then return for an indefinite period grasping their degree certificate.
Otispunkmeyer said:
Some of them are pointlessly wooly though. Art and Drama etc I can see the point of (though if you're good at art, surely you're good at art whether you go to uni to do more art or not). I remember walking into the wrong lecture theater once where the lecturer was discussing "the family love sphere" or something to that effect. No I don't have a clue what the fook that was about either. I suspect its utter ball bags nonsense of use to no one but the lecturer whom remains employed to teach it. But there were roughly double the number of students sat in there lapping it up as there on my engineering course.
3rd level education is not just about qualifications. It's also about the networks you establish in the field you are studying. This applies right across the board, whether it be science, engineering, history, art, drama, music etc.In the world of arts and drama. it is essential that you not only come out with the right skills, but that you also know who is important in these worlds and what institutions etc matter - and that you are known to them.
Virtually every single actor you see on TV or on stage - no matter what type of programme or stage production they are involved in - will have come through some 3rd level drama education system, whether it be university or drama college. Indeed, it is virtually impossible for a non formally trained actor/singer to get an equity card - without which professional work is almost impossible to obtain.
And don't decry the skills of arts and drama students. Much of the success the UK has in the creative industries - come from these people. And it's something we're pretty good at.
Swervin_Mervin said:
There's nothing wrong with the classic red-bricks either. In that regard, the system hasn't changed at all - the most prestigious universities remain so and the lesser ones remain "former polytechnics" or, in the last 15yrs "former colleges".
The failing of our education system, particularly under New Labour, was this idea that higher education should be pursued by all. Some simply are not cut out for it and there should be no shame in the education system equipping them with the relevant skills to go on and carve out a career in the trades or even by working up through the professional ranks.
I wonder whether much of the behavioural trouble at schools could be stemmed if these kids are caught early and made to feel worthwhile. As it stands they must know they're not cut out for university yet made to feel like failures because that's seen as the required path for everyone to take - it's easy to see how they then might just feel like it's not worth bothering at all.
The failing of our education system, particularly under New Labour, was this idea that higher education should be pursued by all. Some simply are not cut out for it and there should be no shame in the education system equipping them with the relevant skills to go on and carve out a career in the trades or even by working up through the professional ranks.
I wonder whether much of the behavioural trouble at schools could be stemmed if these kids are caught early and made to feel worthwhile. As it stands they must know they're not cut out for university yet made to feel like failures because that's seen as the required path for everyone to take - it's easy to see how they then might just feel like it's not worth bothering at all.
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