Tuition Fees: England vs Germany

[scherzkeks]

cptsideways said:

I think you will find Germany has a very high Technical/Engineering degree level as opposed to keeping youngsters off the streets liberal woolly education degrees.

I think you will find that there is value in both.

[SpeckledJim]

youngsyr said:

I'm a classic red brick uni alumni...

They failed you.

[youngsyr]

SpeckledJim said:

youngsyr said:

I'm a classic red brick uni alumni...

They failed you.

Unfortunately I never studied latin, but I guess having your latin grammar corrected makes a change from the typical grammar pedantry on PH.

[fatandwheezing]

Axionknight said:

Agreed.

An apprenticeship almost seems to be considered the dirty option in this country, IMO. Many turn their nose up at the idea of such work instead of "further/higher education", I was called a drop out by my friends when we left school in 2004 and I went on to do an apprenticeship and college day release where as they went on to full time college/sixth form.

We're constantly looking for apprentices, and have a lot of very good people who just didn't want/couldn't/didn't feel ready for Uni, both in technical and admin roles, and it's worked really well, as we get low cost enthusiastic staff, and they get decent experience and montoring, and cash to save up for whatever they are aiming for.

Admittedly right now we seem to get people who are either fully expecting to walk straight out of college to become the head of a team, or people who's ambition reaches the heady heights of having enough money for the next Fifa on Xbox.

[Eric Mc]

Otispunkmeyer said:

That may be true of the renowned names in the game, but I suspect a 2.1 in film studies from a ex-poly is not the kind of thing that is contributing to that success. Similarly my brother did politics at Newcastle, so far the degree seems to have been less than worthless.

I wasn't talking about film studies, media studies or politics students. I was talking about those who have been through proper drama or genuine art courses developing skills and techniques in design, art and performance.

[Bluebarge]

Otispunkmeyer said:

That may be true of the renowned names in the game, but I suspect a 2.1 in film studies from a ex-poly is not the kind of thing that is contributing to that success. Similarly my brother did politics at Newcastle, so far the degree seems to have been less than worthless.

I think you are confusing an academic qualification with a vocational education. University is not just about learning skills to perform a specific function, it is about equipping yourself with the skills to continue life-long learning, as well as broadening your experience and life skills in a way that may not be directly measurable, but that are nonetheless worthwhile. Studying politics, for example, gives you analytical skills that have broad application. Ultimately, whether your brother thinks his time spent was worthwhile is the only thing that counts.

[Bluebarge]

youngsyr said:

Bluebarge said:

youngsyr said:

Bluebarge said:

youngsyr said:

However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.

But it's not really a debt you need to worry about. It's a small additional tax you pay if your earnings meet the threshold. Its impact will be negligible because you pay it off so slowly, or in some cases not at all (either because you stay in low-paid work or move abroad). It's nothing like a loan from a bank. It wouldn't stop me from applying.

Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.

Not really a debt you need to worry about?

It's 9% of everything you earn over £21k.

E.g. You earn £30k p.a., you'll pay £800 per year in student loan repayments, which doesn't even cover the interest on your outstanding £40k balance. So, you're not actually repaying the loan, just some of the interest, meaning you'll have to pay that £800 each and every year for 30 years until it's written off.


Still think it's nothing to worry about?

Yes, because you won't be on £30k forever, and, even if you are, after 30 years the capital is written off. This is never a debt you will be sued for - it's just a small additional tax to pay for a course that could (if you choose wisely) open up massive opportunities for you. It's a graduate tax, not a loan.

Genuinely confused by your "Yes, because you won't be on £30k forever".

1) Some graduates will be on £30k forever - they will pay a total over £24k in repayments, equivalent to a year's take home pay.

2) Those graduates who do move up the pay grade will pay more as they earn more - it's 9% on everything above £21k, so the repayments grow as your earnings grow.

3) You have to earn £42k p.a. before your payments even start reducing the outstanding balance (and that's the day you leave uni, if you don't earn over £42k for several years after your graduation, the salary required will be significantly higher).

You're right about it being an additional tax though, I just wouldn't call £800 p.a. when you're on £30k "small" or "nothing to worry about".

Edited by youngsyr on Thursday 3rd September 21:28

If they're on £30k forever, either it's because they choose to be, or because their course was not worthwhile, or they did not apply themselves. There are plenty of non-graduate jobs that pay more than £30k.

Ultimately, university-level education either needs to be rationed (30 years ago, university places available were about 20% of what they are now) or it needs to be paid for by those that use it. The current system is not especially burdensome for students, and does allow a much greater number of people to access higher education. Whether it is ultimately affordable for the taxpayer, I have my doubts, but, for students, it's about the cheapest "loan" they'll ever get.

[youngsyr]

Bluebarge said:

...for students, it's about the cheapest "loan" they'll ever get.

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

Student loans are definitely not a cheap loan.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 15:54

[RedLeicester]

youngsyr said:

Bluebarge said:

youngsyr said:

However, If I'd just passed my A Levels last month, I doubt I'd be going at £9k p.a., plus interest at RPI +3%. Typical graduation debt levels are now around £40k - that's a hell of a lot of money to pay back even with the graduate salary uplift.

But it's not really a debt you need to worry about. It's a small additional tax you pay if your earnings meet the threshold. Its impact will be negligible because you pay it off so slowly, or in some cases not at all (either because you stay in low-paid work or move abroad). It's nothing like a loan from a bank. It wouldn't stop me from applying.

Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.

Not really a debt you need to worry about?

It's 9% of everything you earn over £21k.

E.g. You earn £30k p.a., you'll pay £800 per year in student loan repayments, which doesn't even cover the interest on your outstanding £40k balance. So, you're not actually repaying the loan, just some of the interest, meaning you'll have to pay that £800 each and every year for 30 years until it's written off.


Still think it's nothing to worry about?

If you're on 30kpa and you're worried about £66 per month, you clearly live a charmed life and don't have nearly enough to worry about.

A few tens of pounds for three years of further education. Sounds like a bargain to me.

[youngsyr]

RedLeicester said:

If you're on 30kpa and you're worried about £66 per month, you clearly live a charmed life and don't have nearly enough to worry about.

A few tens of pounds for three years of further education. Sounds like a bargain to me.

That "few tens of pounds" is actually £800 per year, after tax, every year for 30 years.

During that time it amounts to over £24,000, or a full year's salary after tax.

I doubt there are many people on £30k p.a. who wouldn't miss that amount of money.

[Andy Zarse]

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

1. What is a "credit card loan"?
2. What is inflation's "historic level"? This is a meaningless phrase.
3. Why is your referencing the rate against unsecured personal loan rates a bad metric, since student loans are essentially an unsecured personal loan?

[youngsyr]

Andy Zarse said:

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

1. What is a "credit card loan"?
2. What is inflation's "historic level"? This is a meaningless phrase.
3. Why is your referencing the rate against unsecured personal loan rates a bad metric, since student loans are essentially an unsecured personal loan?

1. Several credit cards offer interest free periods of up to 18 months, these are essentially short term, unsecured, interest free loans.

2. The government's stated target is 2% CPI, RPI (which is the denominator for student loans) typically runs above this, by up to 2%. Historic rates can be found here: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data...

3. Student loans are secured against your future earnings, repayments are deducted at source by your employer, you have no choice in the matter. Claiming they are unsecured is misleading.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 16:24

[Bluebarge]

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

Student loans are definitely not a cheap loan.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 15:54

They most certainly are, because you will never, ever be sued for repayment and, if you can't pay off the interest or capital, they are waived. It couldn't be more of a gift if it had shiny paper and a big bow round it.

[youngsyr]

Bluebarge said:

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

Student loans are definitely not a cheap loan.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 15:54

They most certainly are, because you will never, ever be sued for repayment and, if you can't pay off the interest or capital, they are waived. It couldn't be more of a gift if it had shiny paper and a big bow round it.

I realise this is the internet, but even so I'm amazed that anyone could claim a student loan is a gift - how many gifts do you give where you charge a healthy interest rate on the value of the gift and demand repayments from the recipient's salary directly from the employer?

[Ali G]

Go live in Germanland.

Lovely place.

Syrians seem to think so too.

[Bluebarge]

youngsyr said:

Bluebarge said:

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

Student loans are definitely not a cheap loan.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 15:54

They most certainly are, because you will never, ever be sued for repayment and, if you can't pay off the interest or capital, they are waived. It couldn't be more of a gift if it had shiny paper and a big bow round it.

I realise this is the internet, but even so I'm amazed that anyone could claim a student loan is a gift - how many gifts do you give where you charge a healthy interest rate on the value of the gift and demand repayments from the recipient's salary directly from the employer?

You started off with the frankly ludicrous comment that by the time your kids are 18 it would not be worth them going to Uni unless it was Oxbridge, such is the cost of tuition fees. It was pointed out to you that the tuition fee loans are a very painless way of paying for higher education, which will have minimal impact on the student. Unless you think tuition fees should be abolished altogether, in which case please explain how this could be funded out of general taxation given the other strains on the public purse, they represent a very painless alternative which still allows poorer students to access higher education. Contrast that with the US, where study at a top Uni can easily cost $60k p.a. (multiply by 4 for an undergraduate course) which acts as a very effective barrier to higher education for many. The UK system is very cheap for the student and is the only alternative to massive cuts in the education sector, or public spending cuts elsewhere.

I'm amazed that you cannot see this, and I really, really hope that you do not put your kids off higher education by your inability to see the value in the current funding system, or the value of higher education itself.

[Andy Zarse]

youngsyr said:

Andy Zarse said:

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

1. What is a "credit card loan"?
2. What is inflation's "historic level"? This is a meaningless phrase.
3. Why is your referencing the rate against unsecured personal loan rates a bad metric, since student loans are essentially an unsecured personal loan?

1. Several credit cards offer interest free periods of up to 18 months, these are essentially short term, unsecured, interest free loans.

2. The government's stated target is 2% CPI, RPI (which is the denominator for student loans) typically runs above this, by up to 2%. Historic rates can be found here: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data...

3. Student loans are secured against your future earnings, repayments are deducted at source by your employer, you have no choice in the matter. Claiming they are unsecured is misleading.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 16:24

1. And at the end of the 18 months? Revert to 20%? In no way comparable to a student loan.
2. CPI v RPI. This is a fair point. CPI is now used for almost everything, and there is talk from the ONS that they will stop calculating it. However, the true reference is between RPI and the increase in average earnings. It's too one dimensional to ignore this.
3. And your home is at risk if you do not keep up repayments on an unsecured loan... so equally misleading to compare with a student loan then.

[youngsyr]

Bluebarge said:

youngsyr said:

Bluebarge said:

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

Student loans are definitely not a cheap loan.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 15:54

They most certainly are, because you will never, ever be sued for repayment and, if you can't pay off the interest or capital, they are waived. It couldn't be more of a gift if it had shiny paper and a big bow round it.

I realise this is the internet, but even so I'm amazed that anyone could claim a student loan is a gift - how many gifts do you give where you charge a healthy interest rate on the value of the gift and demand repayments from the recipient's salary directly from the employer?

You started off with the frankly ludicrous comment that by the time your kids are 18 it would not be worth them going to Uni unless it was Oxbridge, such is the cost of tuition fees. It was pointed out to you that the tuition fee loans are a very painless way of paying for higher education, which will have minimal impact on the student. Unless you think tuition fees should be abolished altogether, in which case please explain how this could be funded out of general taxation given the other strains on the public purse, they represent a very painless alternative which still allows poorer students to access higher education. Contrast that with the US, where study at a top Uni can easily cost $60k p.a. (multiply by 4 for an undergraduate course) which acts as a very effective barrier to higher education for many. The UK system is very cheap for the student and is the only alternative to massive cuts in the education sector, or public spending cuts elsewhere.

I'm amazed that you cannot see this, and I really, really hope that you do not put your kids off higher education by your inability to see the value in the current funding system, or the value of higher education itself.

...and I pointed out to you, several times, that the impact on the student of £40k of debt is not "minimal", but just as you ignore my points, I'll ignore yours.

[youngsyr]

Andy Zarse said:

youngsyr said:

Andy Zarse said:

youngsyr said:

The rest of your post is opinion, which I disagree with, but the part I quoted above is factually incorrect.

The current interest rate for student loans is about 3.9%, which is much higher than the majority of mortgages on offer as well as short term credit card loans.

The rate is RPI +3%, so it could easily top 6% if inflation reaches historic levels, which would be approaching unsecured personal loan rates.

1. What is a "credit card loan"?
2. What is inflation's "historic level"? This is a meaningless phrase.
3. Why is your referencing the rate against unsecured personal loan rates a bad metric, since student loans are essentially an unsecured personal loan?

1. Several credit cards offer interest free periods of up to 18 months, these are essentially short term, unsecured, interest free loans.

2. The government's stated target is 2% CPI, RPI (which is the denominator for student loans) typically runs above this, by up to 2%. Historic rates can be found here: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data...

3. Student loans are secured against your future earnings, repayments are deducted at source by your employer, you have no choice in the matter. Claiming they are unsecured is misleading.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 4th September 16:24

1. And at the end of the 18 months? Revert to 20%? In no way comparable to a student loan.
2. CPI v RPI. This is a fair point. CPI is now used for almost everything, and there is talk from the ONS that they will stop calculating it. However, the true reference is between RPI and the increase in average earnings. It's too one dimensional to ignore this.
3. And your home is at risk if you do not keep up repayments on an unsecured loan... so equally misleading to compare with a student loan then.

Regardless, taking the government's CPI target (and not even considering the RPI premium on this), the interest rate of the loan is intended to be over 5%. That is not cheap for a loan that's secured on your salary.

[KFC]

It sounds like a cheap loan to me if its given to you when no other lender would give you it, and it allows you to become a doctor, pilot or architect when you couldn't have done so otherwise.

If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.