Tuition Fees: England vs Germany
Discussion
KFC said:
It sounds like a cheap loan to me if its given to you when no other lender would give you it, and it allows you to become a doctor, pilot or architect when you couldn't have done so otherwise.
If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
By that logic, payday loans are cheap - as they lend to people when no one else will and you can do with it what you will! If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
Regardless, the claim was that they're the cheapest loan a student will ever get, which is demonstrably untrue.
youngsyr said:
By that logic, payday loans are cheap - as they lend to people when no one else will and you can do with it what you will!
(disclaimer, I work in the payday loans industry)Payday loans are cheap if you use one to fix your car and avoid being fired from your £2000 a month job in the process. If you go tip it all straight into the till in your local weatherspoons or put it in a drug dealers pocket, its not so cheap is it. It all depends on what you do with it.
youngsyr said:
Regardless, the claim was that they're the cheapest loan a student will ever get, which is demonstrably untrue.
I think its the best value loan they'll ever get, as nobody else will give them money under the same circumstances, with such potential positive live changing outcomes from it.Axionknight said:
That industry pays well judging by the notes in your profile. Care to share with us the demographic of your average debtor and what they spend their money on?
Most spend it on frivolous crap. Friday is always the best day for lending... a significant % will have absolutely nothing to show for todays loan tomorrow, other than a headache, sore nostrils and maybe some kebab stains down their shirt.KFC said:
youngsyr said:
By that logic, payday loans are cheap - as they lend to people when no one else will and you can do with it what you will!
(disclaimer, I work in the payday loans industry)Payday loans are cheap if you use one to fix your car and avoid being fired from your £2000 a month job in the process. If you go tip it all straight into the till in your local weatherspoons or put it in a drug dealers pocket, its not so cheap is it. It all depends on what you do with it.
youngsyr said:
Regardless, the claim was that they're the cheapest loan a student will ever get, which is demonstrably untrue.
I think its the best value loan they'll ever get, as nobody else will give them money under the same circumstances, with such potential positive live changing outcomes from it.youngsyr said:
RedLeicester said:
If you're on 30kpa and you're worried about £66 per month, you clearly live a charmed life and don't have nearly enough to worry about.
A few tens of pounds for three years of further education. Sounds like a bargain to me.
That "few tens of pounds" is actually £800 per year, after tax, every year for 30 years.A few tens of pounds for three years of further education. Sounds like a bargain to me.
During that time it amounts to over £24,000, or a full year's salary after tax.
I doubt there are many people on £30k p.a. who wouldn't miss that amount of money.
Who the fvck really thinks £800/year is a burden. It is £4 per working day. Most workers I see waste that on a coffee and a muffin everyday at Costa.
youngsyr said:
...and I pointed out to you, several times, that the impact on the student of £40k of debt is not "minimal", but just as you ignore my points, I'll ignore yours.
I pity your kids to be honest. Being brought up to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing by the sound of it. youngsyr said:
KFC said:
It sounds like a cheap loan to me if its given to you when no other lender would give you it, and it allows you to become a doctor, pilot or architect when you couldn't have done so otherwise.
If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
By that logic, payday loans are cheap - as they lend to people when no one else will and you can do with it what you will! If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
Regardless, the claim was that they're the cheapest loan a student will ever get, which is demonstrably untrue.
It is not a secured loan in any sense of the word. It is not 'secured against your salary' - that would entail a power for them to take ALL your salary in the event of default - which they do not do.
In a nutshell, you're wrong. You're free to just not like the idea of student loan debt - many people don't like the idea of borrowing money.
johnfm said:
youngsyr said:
KFC said:
It sounds like a cheap loan to me if its given to you when no other lender would give you it, and it allows you to become a doctor, pilot or architect when you couldn't have done so otherwise.
If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
By that logic, payday loans are cheap - as they lend to people when no one else will and you can do with it what you will! If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
Regardless, the claim was that they're the cheapest loan a student will ever get, which is demonstrably untrue.
It is not a secured loan in any sense of the word. It is not 'secured against your salary' - that would entail a power for them to take ALL your salary in the event of default - which they do not do.
In a nutshell, you're wrong. You're free to just not like the idea of student loan debt - many people don't like the idea of borrowing money.
Your point that they're typically not available to 18 year olds is irrelevant, the claim was that a student loan is the cheapest loan a student would ever get, not what they could get at 18.
The term is also irrelevant - the original claim, which I objected to, did not mention any term.
I work in finance, so I see lots of differnt types of loans. It's not uncommon to see debt secured against future incomes (debt factoring, etc). Student loans are similar, the loan is secured against a student's future earnings. If you want to get technical, student loans are a type of factoring, but that is the same as saying the debt is secured against their future salary to a layman.
The debt is certainly not unsecured. No loan company anywhere would offer an unsecured £40k loan to a typical 18-21 year old student.
So, in a nutshell, you're wrong.
youngsyr said:
johnfm said:
youngsyr said:
KFC said:
It sounds like a cheap loan to me if its given to you when no other lender would give you it, and it allows you to become a doctor, pilot or architect when you couldn't have done so otherwise.
If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
By that logic, payday loans are cheap - as they lend to people when no one else will and you can do with it what you will! If you use it to study social science or knitting, then yeah its probably not so cheap.
Regardless, the claim was that they're the cheapest loan a student will ever get, which is demonstrably untrue.
It is not a secured loan in any sense of the word. It is not 'secured against your salary' - that would entail a power for them to take ALL your salary in the event of default - which they do not do.
In a nutshell, you're wrong. You're free to just not like the idea of student loan debt - many people don't like the idea of borrowing money.
Your point that they're typically not available to 18 year olds is irrelevant, the claim was that a student loan is the cheapest loan a student would ever get, not what they could get at 18.
The term is also irrelevant - the original claim, which I objected to, did not mention any term.
I work in finance, so I see lots of differnt types of loans. It's not uncommon to see debt secured against future incomes (debt factoring, etc). Student loans are similar, the loan is secured against a student's future earnings. If you want to get technical, student loans are a type of factoring, but that is the same as saying the debt is secured against their future salary to a layman.
The debt is certainly not unsecured. No loan company anywhere would offer an unsecured £40k loan to a typical 18-21 year old student.
So, in a nutshell, you're wrong.
Part of your 'argument' ( I use that term very loosely) was 0% credit card intro periods. That's been shown up as a fallacy as a student wouldn't qualify for one.
In fact any secured loan is non comparable. Unless you also suggest the student borrows and then declares bankruptcy as another 'example' of a cheaper way to fund £9k/year.
You can label it a 'kind of factoring' - it isn't a secured loan. What assets will the loan company seize and liquidate upon default? None.
If you work 'in finance' I'm not surprised the finance industry is held in lower esteem than estate agents and genital warts to be honest.
RobinBanks said:
Bluebarge said:
Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.
As long as they don't charge German students, they can't charge other EU students.valiant said:
Might want to have a word with Scotland with that last remark!!
I tried to reply to this but I got an error message.As I understand it, home students must have the same rates as students from other EU member states. But discrepancies can be made within the original EU member state.
Put simply, Scotland can charge students from the rest of the UK what they want, but if they set a price for Scots, it must be the same for students from the rest of the EU. A German or Lithuanian or Italian etc can have the price for Scots, but English, Welsh and Northern Irish students can take whatever rate Scotland sets for them.
RobinBanks said:
Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.
Does anybody here know how difficult German Uni's are get into? I have just registered to do an Open U degree, but that is going to come to at least £16k and take 6 years part time. Doing it half the time for FREE would soften the blow of jacking in work.
I want to retrain and go into the engineering field but I simply cannot justify the tuition/costs to go the traditional route . Not earning for 3 Years and taking in best case scenario a ~£10k pay cut by going into a graduate role afterwards are bitter enough pills to swallow, the idea that I'll have to pay £40k for the privilege bumps it into damn right insanity.
279 said:
Does anybody here know how difficult German Uni's are get into?
I have just registered to do an Open U degree, but that is going to come to at least £16k and take 6 years part time. Doing it half the time for FREE would soften the blow of jacking in work.
On the whole I think they're easier to get into than UK universities, but I don't believe (having been at university in the UK and Germany) that they are as good.I have just registered to do an Open U degree, but that is going to come to at least £16k and take 6 years part time. Doing it half the time for FREE would soften the blow of jacking in work.
In Germany university (undergraduate level) is more like an extension of school than a new stage in life. People talk about student debt here without thinking about the fact that UK students tend to spend more - we're more likely to travel and live away from our parents than German students are.
youngsyr said:
Unfortunately I never studied latin, but I guess having your latin grammar corrected makes a change from the typical grammar pedantry on PH.
I doubt it was your Latin that he was principally referring to.£800 a year to someone taking home over £23k per annum should not be causing them any sort of discomfort. As one poster pointed out, many will be spunking this on coffee when they're working. Others will be dropping way more than this on Sky TV, piss ups, holidays etc.
If they could fund it more cheaply elsewhere they are welcome to do so. If they didn't need the degree to secure that sort of take home (and to then remain on it for 30yrs) then they shouldn't have taken one.
The other forms of credit you refer to are nothing like as cheap in real terms for the vast majority of people, nor in the likelihood of being able to secure it. Though if a student can find a way of funding his studies via a credit card (for example) and it working out more cheaply, they probably never needed the loan (or degree) anyway.
RobinBanks said:
On the whole I think they're easier to get into than UK universities, but I don't believe (having been at university in the UK and Germany) that they are as good.
In Germany university (undergraduate level) is more like an extension of school than a new stage in life. People talk about student debt here without thinking about the fact that UK students tend to spend more - we're more likely to travel and live away from our parents than German students are.
Not sure about the UK. But I've been in Germany for a while now, and the "undergraduate" degree here (the Diplom) is equivalent to a US Master's degree in most fields. German Unis are also fairly difficult to get into. In Germany university (undergraduate level) is more like an extension of school than a new stage in life. People talk about student debt here without thinking about the fact that UK students tend to spend more - we're more likely to travel and live away from our parents than German students are.
johnfm said:
youngsyr said:
RedLeicester said:
If you're on 30kpa and you're worried about £66 per month, you clearly live a charmed life and don't have nearly enough to worry about.
A few tens of pounds for three years of further education. Sounds like a bargain to me.
That "few tens of pounds" is actually £800 per year, after tax, every year for 30 years.A few tens of pounds for three years of further education. Sounds like a bargain to me.
During that time it amounts to over £24,000, or a full year's salary after tax.
I doubt there are many people on £30k p.a. who wouldn't miss that amount of money.
Who the fvck really thinks £800/year is a burden. It is £4 per working day. Most workers I see waste that on a coffee and a muffin everyday at Costa.
RobinBanks said:
Bluebarge said:
Back on topic, Germany's zero tuition fees also apply to international students (as well as EU) - interesting to see how long that will last.
As long as they don't charge German students, they can't charge other EU students.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff