The minimum wage and immigration

[Digga]

Of the asylum seekers and migrants heading our way, there will undoubtedly be a large number who combine good English language skills with numerous practical and professional skills. However, I would guess there are also a large number - perhaps the majority, who do not.

Clearly, these people should not be exploited but, on the other hand, if they deem sub-minimum wage and accommodation more basic than an indigenous Housing Association tenant would normally countenance as being a better life - a new start - is it not rather perverse to bar this option? We all know of immigrants arriving, grafting and often in the process building successful ventures - the local Kurdish Iraqis who valet my van being a prime example - and serving the needs of the community and country (often doing jobs that the indigenous population either cannot or will not do) and if we prevent this happening purely to fulfill high-brow politicised ideals, aren't 'we' part of the problem?

It seems to me that, safety and working hours laws aside, a lot of employee legislation is designed by the Labour movement (based on ideas from the days where the average party member wore workboots not socks and sandals) to protect indigenous work force, rather than to address contemporary needs and opportunities. Is it not a throwback to the days of outright exploitation, which now prevents us from creating opportunity, for both the UK and also for immigrants, to start a new chapter?

[ZedLeg]

Considering that the minimum wage here doesn't pay enough for people with families to work without some sort of government subsidy, what would you call paying people less than that if not exploitation?

[R8Steve]

ZedLeg said:

Considering that the minimum wage here doesn't pay enough for people with families to work without some sort of government subsidy, what would you call paying people less than that if not exploitation?

I'm not entirely sure this is the case for everyone.

[ZedLeg]

That's why I didn't say everyone.

[crankedup]

ZedLeg said:

Considering that the minimum wage here doesn't pay enough for people with families to work without some sort of government subsidy, what would you call paying people less than that if not exploitation?

Plenty around to fully exploit the more vulnerable and the more cheap labour that enters the Country the easier it becomes to exploit.

[R8Steve]

ZedLeg said:

That's why I didn't say everyone.

You said for people with families. Not all people with families rely on benefits if they are on minimum wage.

The minimum wage applies to foreign workers in any case and that won't change. What will happen though is the market for minimum wage will become very saturated.

[Digga]

R8Steve said:

ZedLeg said:

Considering that the minimum wage here doesn't pay enough for people with families to work without some sort of government subsidy, what would you call paying people less than that if not exploitation?

I'm not entirely sure this is the case for everyone.

I've not seen it proven and, in any case, this overlooks the facts that under current proposals, there will be not benefits for most immigrants.

These are people who need (not want) only the most basic human necessities to live. They don't give a st about colour TVs, iPhones, scratchcards, fags, lager, designer lables, cars on PCP. For starters, they just want safety, shelter and food. Then they can begin to improve their lot.

[ZedLeg]

I'd be amazed if there was any family working on minimum wages that weren't claiming some sort of benefit or tax credit.

[Digga]

ZedLeg said:

I'd be amazed if there was any family working on minimum wages that weren't claiming some sort of benefit or tax credit.

You're looking at this from the cosy, smug, student-union politics side of the debate. Turn the tables for a moment and actually think about what these people are fleeing from and what they need - how can they actually get on the ladder of western civilisation?

We're not talking about those fortunate enough to be educated and skilled, but the rank and file. What future do we offer them?

[BlackLabel]

In 15 years we've had about a dozen prosecutions for underpayment of the minimum wage. Either we have the most law abiding small business owners on earth or lots of them just take no notice of it and can just do as they please.

Edited by BlackLabel on Friday 4th September 11:26

[ZedLeg]

Digga said:

R8Steve said:

ZedLeg said:

Considering that the minimum wage here doesn't pay enough for people with families to work without some sort of government subsidy, what would you call paying people less than that if not exploitation?

I'm not entirely sure this is the case for everyone.

I've not seen it proven and, in any case, this overlooks the facts that under current proposals, there will be not benefits for most immigrants.

These are people who need (not want) only the most basic human necessities to live. They don't give a st about colour TVs, iPhones, scratchcards, fags, lager, designer lables, cars on PCP. For starters, they just want safety, shelter and food. Then they can begin to improve their lot.

You realise that once you're out of Daily Mail land and Benefit St a decent quality of life is all anyone wants.

Sounds like you just want to import a serf population to take advantage of. Move to the Middle East, you'll love it there.

[Digga]

ZedLeg said:

You realise that once you're out of Daily Mail land and Benefit St a decent quality of life is all anyone wants.

Sounds like you just want to import a serf population to take advantage of. Move to the Middle East, you'll love it there.

I want to give people a chance.

Right now, if you arrive here as a refugee, have no skills and poor-to-no grasp of the English language, you will never work. End of.

Then you have legislation like this: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/454929/Immigrants...

[AJS-]

Those British citizens who rely on their minimum wage jobs will just love that.

On the other hand I think the minimum wage cuts out quite a lot of opportunities for people to get on the ladder in general, I don't see why the freedom to bargain your own contract should be only granted to asylum seekers.

[ZedLeg]

AJS- said:

Those British citizens who rely on their minimum wage jobs will just love that.

On the other hand I think the minimum wage cuts out quite a lot of opportunities for people to get on the ladder in general, I don't see why the freedom to bargain your own contract should be only granted to asylum seekers.

While that's fine in theory it doesn't take into account that the majority of minimum wage jobs are at the bottom of large multinationals who'll always squeeze the last pound out of something. They won't offer people a fair wage for a fair days work, they'll offer the bare minimum that they can get away with.

[Digga]

I think blaming MNCs for min-wagesploitation is a bit simplistic. If I use my eyes and ears to look around, yes, they are culpable to an extent, but equally, there are many and various exploitations happening beneath the radar in small businesses.

My view is that if someone comes her and is both unskilled and desperate, they will likely be exploited right now. They are immediately forced outside of the system, so not only are they not on minimum wage, but thereby also outside of any welfare entitlements (from work) and, most importantly outside of employment laws. That or they simply have no job prospects whatsoever.

[ZedLeg]

Your suggestion doesn't fix the exploitation though, it just gives it a legal standing. If they're not entitled to a fair wage or any benefits what exactly has changed under your suggestion?

[Digga]

ZedLeg said:

Your suggestion doesn't fix the exploitation though, it just gives it a legal standing. If they're not entitled to a fair wage or any benefits what exactly has changed under your suggestion?

Does change things; it puts them in the system. So they're registered as working (so will become entitled to welfare) and are also employed within the bounds of other laws.

Fair is an airy fairy concept; you ask them what's 'fair' - is it fair they;re displaced, what would they do to find a new beginning, what wage would they chose to work for?

There's thousands wanting to come here, often from the most basic of backgrounds. Just about every single aspect of the most bog-standard existence (with the exception of the weather perhaps) is a huge step-change improvement, but not all of them are going to be capable of any but the most basic jobs. Perhaps in time, they can up-skill and, in any case, being within the system are free to seek other employment at any time, rather than being effectively enslaved by black market gangmasters.

[wiggy001]

Digga said:

...immigrants arriving, grafting and often in the process building successful ventures - the local Kurdish Iraqis who valet my van being a prime example - and serving the needs of the community and country...

or potentially promoting slave labour

[Zoobeef]

I think the minimum wage is too high anyway. If some of the absolute mongtards I've met in shops and businesses are being paid £6.50+ an hour then it is too much.

So yes depending what job they do should be linked to how much the job is worth.

[ZedLeg]

Digga said:

Fair is an airy fairy concept; you ask them what's 'fair' - is it fair they;re displaced, what would they do to find a new beginning, what wage would they chose to work for?

I would disagree that fair is an airy fairy concept. In this context a fair wage would be one that lets them afford to live as we would expect to. All your suggestion would do is give the people who would exploit them a legal standing to do so.

My suggestion would be to give people who come here a chance to improve themselves through education. Help them learn English and integrate into society, not isolate and ghettoize them.