The minimum wage and immigration

[Digga]

ZedLeg said:

a fair wage would be one that lets them afford to live as we would expect to.

Why project our bullst onto them? Really?

ZedLeg said:

My suggestion would be to give people who come here a chance to improve themselves through education. Help them learn English and integrate into society, not isolate and ghettoize them.

Too many problems to list here, but the prime ones are:
Educate them where and how?
What timescale do you propose?
How do they pay their way in the meantime?
What of those who are unable or unwilling to upskill?
What of those who can be taught the language yet are still unable to gain any vocational skills?

No one wants ghettos, no want wants to isolate people. In fact, enabling them to work is the best way of them becoming integrated.

[crankedup]

ZedLeg said:

Digga said:

Fair is an airy fairy concept; you ask them what's 'fair' - is it fair they;re displaced, what would they do to find a new beginning, what wage would they chose to work for?

I would disagree that fair is an airy fairy concept. In this context a fair wage would be one that lets them afford to live as we would expect to. All your suggestion would do is give the people who would exploit them a legal standing to do so.

My suggestion would be to give people who come here a chance to improve themselves through education. Help them learn English and integrate into society, not isolate and ghettoize them.

Integration has not worked, list faults on the indigenous society and equally on the immigrants. Whichever way its cut it simply has been a failure, thus far.

[Charlie1986]

Why don't we support the Ex Armed forces what live on the street before we start helping people who apply for immigration?

Charity starts at home not by claiming asylum

[Bluebarge]

Charlie1986 said:

Why don't we support the Ex Armed forces what live on the street before we start helping people who apply for immigration?

Charity starts at home not by claiming asylum

We can do both. Easily. At the same time.

[Charlie1986]

Bluebarge said:

We can do both. Easily. At the same time.

Then why is happening? If we could do it easily the ex forces that are on the street now wouldn't be last official figures are over 20k. They are being passed over on housing which is going to people who have been given asylum

[Bluebarge]

Charlie1986 said:

Bluebarge said:

We can do both. Easily. At the same time.

Then why is happening? If we could do it easily the ex forces that are on the street now wouldn't be last official figures are over 20k. They are being passed over on housing which is going to people who have been given asylum

Incompetence probably. But both are achievable, at the same time.

[Digga]

The problems for some ex-forces are complex; a mix of skills and psychological in some cases. Merely throwing benefits (housing of otherwise) at them is not really tackling the deeper issues which, I'd agree, should be done.

[Charlie1986]

Bluebarge said:

Incompetence probably. But both are achievable, at the same time.

But how? We don't have enough housing or jobs so why should tax payers money be given to people who will not work. Surely if there was enough councils would not have to fork out on B&B costs etc and the national unemployment would not be over 3 million

The people who claim asylum then go out and find a job I have no problems with as they wont be relying on housing etc from the government.

[Mr_B]

Charlie1986 said:

Bluebarge said:

Incompetence probably. But both are achievable, at the same time.

But how? We don't have enough housing or jobs so why should tax payers money be given to people who will not work. Surely if there was enough councils would not have to fork out on B&B costs etc and the national unemployment would not be over 3 million

The people who claim asylum then go out and find a job I have no problems with as they wont be relying on housing etc from the government.

It's a bit like when people say we could build homes for millions of people , despite a consistent record of not building or sorting out housing problems long before immigration numbers passed an average 50k per year and were insignificant. It could be done, the fact it never was and people pile on the problems doesn't seem to registrar before people on the internet say it could be done.

[Charlie1986]

Digga said:

The problems for some ex-forces are complex; a mix of skills and psychological in some cases. Merely throwing benefits (housing of otherwise) at them is not really tackling the deeper issues which, I'd agree, should be done.

Biggest problem I encountered was transferable skills most companies don't recognise anything you have done in the military. There are a few exception and the military covenant has help in this case.

As for the other problems many cant get help as they don't have fixed abodes so they get lost in the system. Nearly all the ex military want to be helped and get jobs but many just fall from grace and get lost in a system where it doesn't count being British and serving your young adult life protecting the very people who you are forgotten by

OP sorry for de-railing the thread a bit.

[SeeFive]

Well, in my personal experience of the Tunisian lad that I sponsored to come here, I would suggest the following to say that some migrants may not need to worry about minimum wage for too long if his example is anything to go by.

When he arrived, he went to the benefits office to get a NI number. Their first question to him was "would you like to claim benefits" which he refused. He just wanted to get a job and the lack of NI number was blocking his job applications, which he incidentally started on day 1 of arrival.

He had qualifications to be a sports teacher which would require a further year of UK studies to convert, but applied for absolutley anything and attended several interviews a week. He did a lot of voluntary work at schools to get to know the system here, taking football and basketball classes in evenings and weekends, and got a job stacking shelves on night shifts at a supermarket. He was suckered into weeks of,unpaid work preparing a school for the returning kids in September on the basis that it would help his chances to get a job there - you know, relevant things like cleaning and painting windows, floors, walls etc during the day whilst still doing his night shifts at the supermarket. And being up a ladder all day in the sun with the Ramadan restrictions on liquids made it even harder for him than it would most of us non-Muslims.

He saved like mad while living with us. He then applied for and got a temporary job using his language skills (English, French and Arabic) in a call centre selling Oracle cloud services to businesses in France and the Arab world. He then got a job in a call centre for a major insurance company, again his Arabic language and cultural skills got him in looking after existing customers. He has moved up the chain into new business development very fast, mainly because his company was dumb enough to expect very traditional ambassadors and senior Arabic figures to do business with a woman (his boss) who did not speak Arabic.

Long story short, while not earning a fantastic wage by PH standards, in 4 years he has funded his citizenship application (not cheap), learned to drive (not cheap), taken holidays abroad (non EU due to his restrictions on movement awaiting citizenship), visited his family back home numerous times, bought a reliable, newish car, bought a nice brand new new apartment two,years ago, and has a 3 month old daughter and a nice wife. He also has a very large TV and just about every electronic goodie and life enhancing item that he and his missus wants - all paid for except his mortgage of course.

He has achieved this through creativity and harder work than many of us could imagine to get himself established, and once spotting his niche, maximised that opportunity through more hard work. Yes he had some luck on the way and we provided a home for him for about 18 months. When he got work, he insisted on paying his way too!

He arrived here through the proper channels, and was not looking to take advantage of the system or break any laws entering the UK. He was also not seeking asylum, he only had to face large groups of people trying to rob his neighbourhood with clubs and machetes, and not an army.

I am sure that there are different stories out there, but perhaps taking time and effort to arrive through the proper, expensive and time consuming channels is a factor.

TLDR: some migrants work hard and use their unique skills to get off minimum wage and make a success of themselves in the UK by hard work and creativity.

[Bluebarge]

Charlie1986 said:

Bluebarge said:

Incompetence probably. But both are achievable, at the same time.

But how? We don't have enough housing or jobs so why should tax payers money be given to people who will not work. Surely if there was enough councils would not have to fork out on B&B costs etc and the national unemployment would not be over 3 million

The people who claim asylum then go out and find a job I have no problems with as they wont be relying on housing etc from the government.

We have the resources. It is simply a question of allocating them. I don't agree with your assumption that refugees will look to rely on benefits; most want to work, because they come from a society where, if you don't work, you starve, but they legally cannot work until they are granted asylum. The bigger problem (from whom resources should be withdrawn) is lazy feckers from our indigenous population who see living life "on the social" as a way of life.

As to ex-servicemen, if they are living on the streets because of mental health/PTSD issues, they need help, and should get it but, equally, I don't think you should get a free house just because you did 5 years in the stores at Brize Norton. Servicemen should prepare for Civvy Street whilst they are still in the Forces and the Forces should help them to do this. There will always be hard luck/special cases and these should be helped, but taking the Queen's Shilling has never been a passport to Easy Street once you leave, nor should it be.

[Charlie1986]

Bluebarge said:

We have the resources. It is simply a question of allocating them. I don't agree with your assumption that refugees will look to rely on benefits; most want to work, because they come from a society where, if you don't work, you starve, but they legally cannot work until they are granted asylum. The bigger problem (from whom resources should be withdrawn) is lazy feckers from our indigenous population who see living life "on the social" as a way of life.

As to ex-servicemen, if they are living on the streets because of mental health/PTSD issues, they need help, and should get it but, equally, I don't think you should get a free house just because you did 5 years in the stores at Brize Norton. Servicemen should prepare for Civvy Street whilst they are still in the Forces and the Forces should help them to do this. There will always be hard luck/special cases and these should be helped, but taking the Queen's Shilling has never been a passport to Easy Street once you leave, nor should it be.

The people who suffer from PTSD and mental health very rarely have just served 5 years at Brize. Maybe look up or have a read some stories of ex military who suffer from it and you will see what they have seen with there eyes is not normal!

ive never once met an Serving member or Ex member who though a life on the dole is better than life on the street.

Everybody adapts to society if I was giving you free money would you want to work?

[Digga]

SeeFive said:

Well, in my personal experience of the Tunisian lad that I sponsored to come here, I would suggest the following to say that some migrants may not need to worry about minimum wage for too long if his example is anything to go by...

...I am sure that there are different stories out there, but perhaps taking time and effort to arrive through the proper, expensive and time consuming channels is a factor.

TLDR: some migrants work hard and use their unique skills to get off minimum wage and make a success of themselves in the UK by hard work and creativity.

I think getting immigrants into the system and making it easy is key. That really does mean - for some less fortunate than your lad, in terms of lack of skills and a sponsor - being allowed into the real work environment at the lowest possible entry point. Otherwise, they're never in the system and can never begin to establish themselves, rather they end up working outside of the system in the black market.

[Digga]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

No, but sadly it certainly seems to have landed them with a large number of the 'wrong sort' of immigrants: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[PRTVR]

Charlie1986 said:

Then why is happening? If we could do it easily the ex forces that are on the street now wouldn't be last official figures are over 20k. They are being passed over on housing which is going to people who have been given asylum

So an afgan who may have shot one of our forces would get preference over ex forces ?
Has this country gone mad.

[Charlie1986]

PRTVR said:

So an afgan who may have shot one of our forces would get preference over ex forces ?
Has this country gone mad.

ex serviceman could be living on the street due to mental problems or maybe something else. He doesn't have a fixed abode there for can not claim for any housing benefits or Job seekers or even apply for jobs. Will not have priority over an asylum seeking family.

Asylum family's will get housed in a council emergency accommodation then moved in to housing. There for giving him fixed address where they can apply for any benefits and start applying for jobs etc

As I said before many ex service men who are on streets don't want to be there but they lost in the system and have no option but to be there.

[PRTVR]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I was commenting on the post I quoted, I have no way of telling if its true or not, do you know it defiantly untrue ?

[Charlie1986]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2860748/Army-veteran-left-homeless-council-officials-did-not-make-housing-list-priority-not-drunk-drug-addict.html

Just one example of Ex serviceman being denied. Yes its nothing to do with asylum but shows it does happen. Google is friend for more

im not saying that asylum seekers get priority but they should come behind the ex servicemen and woman who are currently homeless and are on the street or bed hopping with friends.