Syria - whose side are we on
Discussion
Mr Gearchange said:
Sad to realise just how much more safe and stable the world was when we had despotic regimes running large parts of it.
I was going to say ...Sad to realise just how much safer the world might be without religion...The sad reality is people will always find some reason to start a war.
jimmybobby said:
As far as I am concerned the US, UK, Germany etc are supporting Isis. They went against Assad from the start and have been doing everything possible to topple him mostly at the behest of America and certain oil rich arab states.
The US provided training in evasion tactics and medical care as well as it is believed weapons to so called friendly rebels who are more "terrorists" as they are fighting both Assads regime as well as Isis but at the same time many of the so called friendly rebels have joined forces with the Isis regime taking the training weapons etc with them to Isis.
That's what it looked like here tooThe US provided training in evasion tactics and medical care as well as it is believed weapons to so called friendly rebels who are more "terrorists" as they are fighting both Assads regime as well as Isis but at the same time many of the so called friendly rebels have joined forces with the Isis regime taking the training weapons etc with them to Isis.
UK and US supports ISIS against Assad
The trained and armed ISIS fighters pop up and take half of Iraq
Has anyone considered the russians might be right
saaby93 said:
jimmybobby said:
As far as I am concerned the US, UK, Germany etc are supporting Isis. They went against Assad from the start and have been doing everything possible to topple him mostly at the behest of America and certain oil rich arab states.
The US provided training in evasion tactics and medical care as well as it is believed weapons to so called friendly rebels who are more "terrorists" as they are fighting both Assads regime as well as Isis but at the same time many of the so called friendly rebels have joined forces with the Isis regime taking the training weapons etc with them to Isis.
That's what it looked like here tooThe US provided training in evasion tactics and medical care as well as it is believed weapons to so called friendly rebels who are more "terrorists" as they are fighting both Assads regime as well as Isis but at the same time many of the so called friendly rebels have joined forces with the Isis regime taking the training weapons etc with them to Isis.
UK and US supports ISIS against Assad
The trained and armed ISIS fighters pop up and take half of Iraq
Has anyone considered the russians might be right
The other thing was the criticism levelled at the elections. Assad held the elections in government held areas and was criticised for not "allowing" it in rebel held territory. What was he supposed to do? Trust a bunch of people who had shown themselves prepared to do whatever it takes to remove him not to tamper with the election result???
RAF Drones have taken out two British IS supporters
It does look as though we're not taking out both sides but our own side
I'm now having trouble deciding which side we're supporting and who is British
A friend of one of those killed, Mohammed Islam from Cardiff just speaking about it on radio4
It does look as though we're not taking out both sides but our own side
I'm now having trouble deciding which side we're supporting and who is British
A friend of one of those killed, Mohammed Islam from Cardiff just speaking about it on radio4
Edited by saaby93 on Monday 7th September 17:46
Smollet said:
Cobnapint said:
Too true. It's probably fair to say that none of this sh*tstorm would be going on if Saddam hadn't decided to invade Kuwait back in 1990.
Actually perhaps the nail has been hit on the head here.However, having given him a bloody nose, made some inroads into turning their air force and armoured divisions into scrap and sending out a very clear signal that incursions to soverign terriroty wouldn't be overlooked - he was well back in his box.
But not being able to leave well alone we went back in - deposed him and are now left with this uuter clusterf
k of a mess.Having nutjobs like Sadam, Gaddaffi and Asad maintain the status quo might be very unpalatable - but far better the devil you know as the alternative, as we see, is potentially far worse. Sadly it's all pretty much our own doing.
scherzkeks said:
Bluebarge said:
It would be, if it weren't just a ludicrous conspiracy theory that you have fabricated yourself.
After all, not much "sweeping" has gone on in Iraq, where ISIS are just as active.
Nothing wrong with a little conspiracy now and then. Its rather naive to think you have any real insight into this campaign. You have 0 access to meaningful reliable information on the subject. OTOH, we do at least know that IS consists of leftovers from past US ventures to control and shape the region's future, we know the US wants Assad out of power, and we know IS has been more successful at this point than any layman could have predicted. The idea that they are being used as a tool is not far-fetched at all IMO, and would fit with the Wolfowitz Doctorine. But I digress, you must have security clearances the rest of us could only dream of. After all, not much "sweeping" has gone on in Iraq, where ISIS are just as active.
Edited by scherzkeks on Monday 7th September 15:28
Apart from the statement that "the US wants Assad out of power" the rest of your post was the usual tinfoil-hat guff that you seem to enjoy spouting without being able to substantiate.
Perhaps you could explain why the US had to rush "advisers" and air force assets to shore up the Iraqi
regime when IS threatened to over-run it. If ISIS were simply a "US tool" this surely would not have happened? Or was this part of the cunning master-plan that you know about but nobody else does?
Please do not bend the facts ever so slightly to suit the purposes .
The Russians supported Assad before there was Isis as a viable threat . Back then there was an acceptable ( of sorts ) opposition . Our indecision compounded Syrian problems .
I completely agree however that the so called Arab spring as a whole was seriously flawed . We should not have encouraged without plan and We allowed several Arab countries special forces and intelligence forces much too free a reign to destabilise regions and back unsavoury groups to such a massive extent that they are now self sufficient . This will take decades to repair .
The solution is no longer simple though I addressed many points earlier in this thread .
I assure you all , Germany the UK and the USA are not supporting Isis as some kind of master plan to topple Assad . I am willing to answer any questions you may have that I can . I will not get drawn into certain ridiculous topics of argument however . Rest assured the fight is serious . In Iraq Isis are taking hits from the Iraqi Kurds ( backed by coalition air strikes ) . They are now safe with a buffer area between them and the Isis . In the south of Iraq the situation is more stable than it has been ( militarily ) . In Syria the Syrian Kurds are more than holding their own against the enemy and are making great inroads . FYI there were more air strikes on kobane than on any single city since world war 2 . You need to see the level of involvement to believe it , blame your press not those in the fight .
As for western goals , I wrote out a detailed account of western goals regarding Assad , the opposition we support and whom we hope to support a few posts back , hope this helps .
The Russians supported Assad before there was Isis as a viable threat . Back then there was an acceptable ( of sorts ) opposition . Our indecision compounded Syrian problems .
I completely agree however that the so called Arab spring as a whole was seriously flawed . We should not have encouraged without plan and We allowed several Arab countries special forces and intelligence forces much too free a reign to destabilise regions and back unsavoury groups to such a massive extent that they are now self sufficient . This will take decades to repair .
The solution is no longer simple though I addressed many points earlier in this thread .
I assure you all , Germany the UK and the USA are not supporting Isis as some kind of master plan to topple Assad . I am willing to answer any questions you may have that I can . I will not get drawn into certain ridiculous topics of argument however . Rest assured the fight is serious . In Iraq Isis are taking hits from the Iraqi Kurds ( backed by coalition air strikes ) . They are now safe with a buffer area between them and the Isis . In the south of Iraq the situation is more stable than it has been ( militarily ) . In Syria the Syrian Kurds are more than holding their own against the enemy and are making great inroads . FYI there were more air strikes on kobane than on any single city since world war 2 . You need to see the level of involvement to believe it , blame your press not those in the fight .
As for western goals , I wrote out a detailed account of western goals regarding Assad , the opposition we support and whom we hope to support a few posts back , hope this helps .
Edited by wtdoom on Monday 7th September 18:24
Bluebarge said:
scherzkeks said:
Bluebarge said:
It would be, if it weren't just a ludicrous conspiracy theory that you have fabricated yourself.
After all, not much "sweeping" has gone on in Iraq, where ISIS are just as active.
Nothing wrong with a little conspiracy now and then. Its rather naive to think you have any real insight into this campaign. You have 0 access to meaningful reliable information on the subject. OTOH, we do at least know that IS consists of leftovers from past US ventures to control and shape the region's future, we know the US wants Assad out of power, and we know IS has been more successful at this point than any layman could have predicted. The idea that they are being used as a tool is not far-fetched at all IMO, and would fit with the Wolfowitz Doctorine. But I digress, you must have security clearances the rest of us could only dream of. After all, not much "sweeping" has gone on in Iraq, where ISIS are just as active.
Edited by scherzkeks on Monday 7th September 15:28
Apart from the statement that "the US wants Assad out of power" the rest of your post was the usual tinfoil-hat guff that you seem to enjoy spouting without being able to substantiate.
Perhaps you could explain why the US had to rush "advisers" and air force assets to shore up the Iraqi
regime when IS threatened to over-run it. If ISIS were simply a "US tool" this surely would not have happened? Or was this part of the cunning master-plan that you know about but nobody else does?
Mr Gearchange said:
Smollet said:
Cobnapint said:
Too true. It's probably fair to say that none of this sh*tstorm would be going on if Saddam hadn't decided to invade Kuwait back in 1990.
Actually perhaps the nail has been hit on the head here.However, having given him a bloody nose, made some inroads into turning their air force and armoured divisions into scrap and sending out a very clear signal that incursions to soverign terriroty wouldn't be overlooked - he was well back in his box.
But not being able to leave well alone we went back in - deposed him and are now left with this uuter clusterf
k of a mess.Having nutjobs like
saaby93 said:
RAF Drones have taken out two British IS supporters
It does look as though we're not taking out both sides but our own side
I'm now having trouble deciding which side we're supporting and who is British
A friend of one of those killed, Mohammed Islam from Cardiff just speaking about it on radio4
I heard him speaking on Radio 4 this evening, his anti-UK bile was absolutely disgusting, calling for an investigation into why his friend was blown up, saying it's shocking that the British RAF mission killed a British person. He was clearly a terrorist first, and anything else second. And now the journos are poring over how Cameroon is justifying it. What does he need to say? One less terrorist in the world, sounds like a result.It does look as though we're not taking out both sides but our own side
I'm now having trouble deciding which side we're supporting and who is British
A friend of one of those killed, Mohammed Islam from Cardiff just speaking about it on radio4
Edited by saaby93 on Monday 7th September 17:46
Bluebarge said:
scherzkeks said:
Bluebarge said:
It would be, if it weren't just a ludicrous conspiracy theory that you have fabricated yourself.
After all, not much "sweeping" has gone on in Iraq, where ISIS are just as active.
Nothing wrong with a little conspiracy now and then. Its rather naive to think you have any real insight into this campaign. You have 0 access to meaningful reliable information on the subject. OTOH, we do at least know that IS consists of leftovers from past US ventures to control and shape the region's future, we know the US wants Assad out of power, and we know IS has been more successful at this point than any layman could have predicted. The idea that they are being used as a tool is not far-fetched at all IMO, and would fit with the Wolfowitz Doctorine. But I digress, you must have security clearances the rest of us could only dream of. After all, not much "sweeping" has gone on in Iraq, where ISIS are just as active.
Edited by scherzkeks on Monday 7th September 15:28
Apart from the statement that "the US wants Assad out of power" the rest of your post was the usual tinfoil-hat guff that you seem to enjoy spouting without being able to substantiate.
Perhaps you could explain why the US had to rush "advisers" and air force assets to shore up the Iraqi
regime when IS threatened to over-run it. If ISIS were simply a "US tool" this surely would not have happened? Or was this part of the cunning master-plan that you know about but nobody else does?
The controlled containment makes sense IMO, as Assad seems the real target. Now offer up something of substance or take a hike.
scherzkeks said:
I base my opinion on the facts posted earlier: They want Assad out. ISIS was created as fallout or blowback from earlier efforts per Wolfowitz Doctrine to reshape the ME. ISIS's progress has been shocking and seemingly impossible to most laymen -- or those with no access to real information. That's you and me. But I don't claim to know for sure what is happening.
The controlled containment makes sense IMO, as Assad seems the real target. Now offer up something of substance or take a hike.
My posts must be invisible to you . The controlled containment makes sense IMO, as Assad seems the real target. Now offer up something of substance or take a hike.
Yes they want Isis out and I have told you exactly the restrictions on the coalition and the UK in particular .
Yes Isis thrived in the conditions we helped create but a secret alliance is simply not true . i know this , for sure ( to quote you ).Again . There is a massive multinational effort at place here . A single city called Kobane has had more air strikes than any city since World War Two . The Kurds in Iraq have received millions and millions of dollars in aid , weapons and equipment from the coalition ( including Germany ) same for the main Baghdad regime . Coalition advisers are running rife in Iraq , and occasionally other areas . Isis have been decimated in the Kurdish areas Iraq and Syria wide with joint operations ( coalition in the air and indigenous forces on the ground ) . Might I ask what else you need to make an informed opinion regarding our alleged alliance with Isis ?
Edited by wtdoom on Monday 7th September 19:40
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