Syria - whose side are we on

[scherzkeks]

wtdoom said:

Might I ask what else you need to make an informed opinion regarding our alleged alliance with Isis ?

It isn't an alliance. It is cynical opportunism.

[wtdoom]

scherzkeks said:

It isn't an alliance. It is cynical opportunism.

I'm afraid you are mistake . Your statement does disservice to those directly involved in these matters . You demean the effort and those involved without evidence And seem to disregard reason , fact and logic . Please do more research . This is simply a case of politicians breaking something and others having to now try to fix it . Nothing more , nothing less

Edited by wtdoom on Monday 7th September 20:01

[rich85uk]

saaby93 said:

jimmybobby said:

As far as I am concerned the US, UK, Germany etc are supporting Isis. They went against Assad from the start and have been doing everything possible to topple him mostly at the behest of America and certain oil rich arab states.

The US provided training in evasion tactics and medical care as well as it is believed weapons to so called friendly rebels who are more "terrorists" as they are fighting both Assads regime as well as Isis but at the same time many of the so called friendly rebels have joined forces with the Isis regime taking the training weapons etc with them to Isis.

That's what it looked like here too
UK and US supports ISIS against Assad
The trained and armed ISIS fighters pop up and take half of Iraq

Has anyone considered the russians might be right

Generally my viewpoint on it too, we should never of disarmed Assad to the point of barrel bombs were his best weapon, what the fk were the west thinking!

Russia is right but don't forget their friend Assad will not allow an oil pipeline to be built through his country to benefit Europe so this means a lot to Russia

[scherzkeks]

wtdoom said:

I'm afraid you are mistake . Your statement does disservice to those of us directly involved in these matters . You demean the effort and those involved without evidence And seem to disregard reason , fact and logic . Please do more research . This is simply a case of politicians breaking something and others having to now try to fix it .

[wtdoom]

scherzkeks said:

Forgive me , I thought I was having a discussion with an adult

[jimmybobby]

rich85uk said:

saaby93 said:

jimmybobby said:

As far as I am concerned the US, UK, Germany etc are supporting Isis. They went against Assad from the start and have been doing everything possible to topple him mostly at the behest of America and certain oil rich arab states.

The US provided training in evasion tactics and medical care as well as it is believed weapons to so called friendly rebels who are more "terrorists" as they are fighting both Assads regime as well as Isis but at the same time many of the so called friendly rebels have joined forces with the Isis regime taking the training weapons etc with them to Isis.

That's what it looked like here too
UK and US supports ISIS against Assad
The trained and armed ISIS fighters pop up and take half of Iraq

Has anyone considered the russians might be right

Generally my viewpoint on it too, we should never of disarmed Assad to the point of barrel bombs were his best weapon, what the fk were the west thinking!

Russia is right but don't forget their friend Assad will not allow an oil pipeline to be built through his country to benefit Europe so this means a lot to Russia

True i suppose. Look Russia stands to benefit as does everyone in this disaster as they will sell weapons etc and if it goes the right way they will win major financial concessions in "the rebuild".

That said they have in my opinion been on the right side in many of the more recent major events where the US in particular have been spectacularly gung ho in their condemnation of Russias position and determination to interfere and make themselves and their weapons industry and partners for a start phenomenally wealthier.

Its sad but i am growing a healthy dislike for the American attitude to global affairs. It seems to me it is all about what America wants and they could not give a damn who gets hurt in the process.

[wtdoom]

rich85uk said:

Generally my viewpoint on it too, we should never of disarmed Assad to the point of barrel bombs were his best weapon, what the fk were the west thinking!

Russia is right but don't forget their friend Assad will not allow an oil pipeline to be built through his country to benefit Europe so this means a lot to Russia

There was a tiny window of opportunity to remove Assad efficiently . We missed this by a massive margin

[DrDoofenshmirtz]

We're screwed. ISIS are going for a global Islamic State, implementing their law and skewed interpritation of Islam. Meanwhile in Europe we're opening the floodgates to their potential future supporters who could turn on the West one they have a foot hold.

...At least thats my understanding. please tell me I'm wrong?

[wtdoom]

DrDoofenshmirtz said:

We're screwed. ISIS are going for a global Islamic State, implementing their law and skewed interpritation of Islam. Meanwhile in Europe we're opening the floodgates to their potential future supporters who could turn on the West one they have a foot hold.

...At least thats my understanding. please tell me I'm wrong?

Remember the hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria ( Kurds , Arabs , Turkmen , Turks etc ) fighting them and the neighbouring countries ( including Iran !) supporting this anti Isis fight. People forget those fighting them are also Muslims

[RedTrident]

wtdoom said:

There was a tiny window of opportunity to remove Assad efficiently . We missed this by a massive margin

Is that when our politicians were debating over whether to vote about bombing Syria? I'm right in thinking at the time this bombing campaign would have targeted Assad's regime. I think had we done that, and this is my opinion, then we would have simply made it easier for ISIS (or another Islamist group) to take control.

I'm sure its more complicated than for an ordinary person like myself to understand the complexity of what is going on here, but it does seem that our entire ME foreign policy is just madness.

We oppose and want to take out Assad because he's a barbaric dictator yet we support Saudi Arabia who support barbarism in Yemen which we turn a blind eye to.
We sell arms to a military regime in Egypt that not only overthrew a democratically elected nut job, but more importantly have no intention of supporting a democratic process.
We bombed Libya and helped overthrow a dictator then stepped back for the Islamist nutters to take over.
I'm not even sure what the truth of the situation in Iraq is. I know I'm not the only one who thinks we went to war under false pretences.

[wtdoom]

RedTrident said:

Is that when our politicians were debating over whether to vote about bombing Syria? I'm right in thinking at the time this bombing campaign would have targeted Assad's regime. I think had we done that, and this is my opinion, then we would have simply made it easier for ISIS (or another Islamist group) to take control.

I'm sure its more complicated than for an ordinary person like myself to understand the complexity of what is going on here, but it does seem that our entire ME foreign policy is just madness.

We oppose and want to take out Assad because he's a barbaric dictator yet we support Saudi Arabia who support barbarism in Yemen which we turn a blind eye to.
We sell arms to a military regime in Egypt that not only overthrew a democratically elected nut job, but more importantly have no intention of supporting a democratic process.
We bombed Libya and helped overthrow a dictator then stepped back for the Islamist nutters to take over.
I'm not even sure what the truth of the situation in Iraq is. I know I'm not the only one who thinks we went to war under false pretences.

I agree with almost everything you write to varying extents . The window I refer to was tiny . There apwas a genuine opposition to Assad before infiltration of foreign fighters and growth of Isis . This window could not have been exploited without troops on the ground . Please understand I'm not condoning it , just pointing out the window

[Cobnapint]

DrDoofenshmirtz said:

We're screwed. ISIS are going for a global Islamic State, implementing their law and skewed interpritation of Islam. Meanwhile in Europe we're opening the floodgates to their potential future supporters who could turn on the West one they have a foot hold.

...At least thats my understanding. please tell me I'm wrong?

You're not wrong. It seems that no matter which part of the ME we try to help, whether it be with food, arms, airstrikes, military training or whatever, we usually end up with it being thrown back in our faces and the nation or people within it, turning against us.

[IainT]

saaby93 said:

IainT said:

saaby93 said:

If Turkey is the nearest EU state

Turkey isn't in the EU!

By Proxy
NATO?

No, not even by proxy through NATO unless the US and Canada are part of the EU? They're certainly close neighbours and, until it became far more hard-line Muslim, looked a very good fit barring their treatment of the Kurds.

Morningside said:

IainT said:

saaby93 said:

If Turkey is the nearest EU state

Turkey isn't in the EU!

Not yet. Give it a couple of years.

Not unless they change their stance on Cyprus...

EU Document said:

Accession negotiations Choose translations of the previous link started in 2005, but until Turkey agrees to apply the Additional Protocol of the Ankara Association Agreement to Cyprus, eight negotiation chapters will not be opened and no chapter will be provisionally closed.

From http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/countries/detailed...

[Morningside]

I know that Cameron is keen for Turkey to be a member. Well he said so last year and I don't know if he has changed his view since it has all kicked off.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cam...

[Foppo]

Can't see Germany allowing Turkey to become a member of the club soon.

They have enough to cope with at the moment besides another massive influx of Turks crossing into Germany.Unless with Cameron so keen to let Turkey be a member he opens the border into the U.K.

[DrDoofenshmirtz]

Smollet said:

Lesser of two evils for me. Back Assad and get rid of ISIS. They pose more of a global threat than he does and then go from there.

Impossible. ISIS are most certainly here to stay. Once they've got a foothold in Dubai (likely by early next year I'd say), they'll focus on Europe.

[RedTrident]

I think the only interest ISIS has in Europe is

- to recruit
- to inspire attacks that brings the fight home (in the style of the IRA campaigns on the mainland)

If anything my understanding of ISIS is that they want the 'West' to have zero engagement in the ME and traditional Muslim states in Africa.

I hadn't realised that they had an interest other than this in Europe. They've got plenty of fighting left to do where they are the I think will take us way past next year I'd have thought.

[wtdoom]

DrDoofenshmirtz said:

Impossible. ISIS are most certainly here to stay. Once they've got a foothold in Dubai (likely by early next year I'd say), they'll focus on Europe.

Historically Dubai has been like Casablanca in ww2 . Also it's one of the hubs everyone's money moves through or "rests" at . Now U.S. Are forcing tighter controls on banking there , people may have to be forced to go elsewhere . Dubai with then lose the Casablanca status .
However I don't see Dubai as the key or stepping stone to Europe . That's North Africa and possibly later Turkey . Even that's not necessary , Isis have taken the aq model to another level , everyone free to act in the name of Isis . People are turned online and need no official "activation" or authority .
All imho of course .

Edited by wtdoom on Monday 7th September 23:47

[anonymous-user]

Wasn't Assad our friend. Then our enemy. But now we're on his side, but cant really say so.
Funny how Putin usually makes the right call..

[jimmybobby]

Jimboka said:

Wasn't Assad our friend. Then our enemy. But now we're on his side, but cant really say so.
Funny how Putin usually makes the right call..

Yes. Yes. No. Yes