Half a million VWs recalled, sneaky emissions software.

[RYH64E]

Scuffers said:

Where did you get that from?

Link?

Last time i looked it was the equivalent of EU 4, but expressed as g/mile.

Here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions...

here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...

and here

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier...

Edited by RYH64E on Wednesday 7th October 21:11

[CocoPops]

Scuffers said:

Not sure you have this right?

US currently the limits of the same as eu4 was, to get through eu5 I would suggest is impossible without some level of AdBlue usage

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

[Scuffers]

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

[gp1699]

Scuffers said:

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

My car is EU6 and is not fitted with Adblue.

[CocoPops]

Scuffers said:

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

The current (facelifted) Q3 has a Euro6 engine that has 184PS AND AdBlue.
So maybe the AdBlue allowed them to increase power and still stay within range, but on the Euro5 engine, they had to reign in the power to 177 (even with the fiddle) in order to pass.

[RYH64E]

Scuffers said:

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

I think that you'll find most of the European and US cars do not have SCR/Adblue systems fitted, and if that's a problem for Euro5 compliance then it's going to be an even bigger problem complying with the US EPA limits.

There's a table in one of the links I posted previously that gives official and actual test results for a VW Jetta that doesn't have SCR/Adblue and a Passat that does, the results would suggest that it's going to be very difficult to get either car to comply with EPA or Euro5 requirements.

The US limits for NOx are 0.043 g/km, the official test results were 0.022 and 0.016 g/km, actual figues are 0.61-1.5 g/km and 0.34-0.67 g/km for the car with SCR/Adblue. The Euro5 limit is 0.18 g/km and both cars have been tested at 0.62 g/km.

[Munter]

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

Bit of a leap there.

Just because the car is included in those with the cheat in the ECU, doesn't have any hard relationship to if it can pass the EU5 test. It may pass without the cheat anyway. VW would still do a recall to remove the cheat.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

I don't think there is a single modern engine that will get the emissions results we see on the tests out in the real world. There have been many PEMS tests showing this in research literature (though manufacturers names are guarded). Heavy and fast transience for a start knackers you up because there isn't time for things to settle down and sort it out.

[Fastdruid]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

I don't think there is a single modern engine that will get the emissions results we see on the tests out in the real world. There have been many PEMS tests showing this in research literature (though manufacturers names are guarded). Heavy and fast transience for a start knackers you up because there isn't time for things to settle down and sort it out.

Certainly not for diesels, although from what I've seen petrols seem to be able to manage (at least in the "real world" tests where the diesels fail miserably, unsure about true driving).

[anonymous-user]

RYH64E said:

The US limits for NOx are 0.043 g/km... actual figues are 0.61-1.5 g/km and 0.34-0.67 g/km for the car with SCR/Adblue.

Ouch

[Scuffers]

Munter said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

Bit of a leap there.

Just because the car is included in those with the cheat in the ECU, doesn't have any hard relationship to if it can pass the EU5 test. It may pass without the cheat anyway. VW would still do a recall to remove the cheat.

not really no.

Yes, cars in the US have been sold without and used extensive SW cheats to pass the test, it's not that easy to do the same for EU5/6 as the test is different (although still far from perfect).

other point is this, even with Adblue, to keep the re-fills to service intervals, the dosage rates have been kept really low, (except when on test!), so any re-flash will have to up the normal dosages to the point that service intervals are going to be hit (or users have to start re-filling the tanks).

even with all the adblue in the world, I seriously double any dismal will meet EU6 in road conditions.

the real question in all this is what's the point in the NOx limit being so low? show us the actual issue with the levels of NOx we have now?

it's another bogus environmental issue.

[Sheepshanks]

Scuffers said:

....other point is this, even with Adblue, to keep the re-fills to service intervals, the dosage rates have been kept really low, (except when on test!), so any re-flash will have to up the normal dosages to the point that service intervals are going to be hit (or users have to start re-filling the tanks).

Sometime within the last couple of months VW UK added usage rates to their page about SCRs - they now say it'll use approx. 1.5L per 620 miles (1000kms).

Some VW Tiguan Euro 6 owners are reporting usage rates of 200 miles per litre. As the tank only holds 12L that's a very limited range.

US owners of Ad Blue equipped Audis say they'll run between extended service intervals - so at least 15K miles. Turns out that's because in the US, Ad Blue dosing is turned off in highway driving.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Thursday 8th October 23:02

[Sheepshanks]

CocoPops said:

The current (facelifted) Q3 has a Euro6 engine that has 184PS AND AdBlue.
So maybe the AdBlue allowed them to increase power and still stay within range, but on the Euro5 engine, they had to reign in the power to 177 (even with the fiddle) in order to pass.

It's a completely new engine in the 184 (EA288). Same as Tiguan, although Q3 has a much more convenient Ad Blue filler.

[powerstroke]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

I don't think there is a single modern engine that will get the emissions results we see on the tests out in the real world. There have been many PEMS tests showing this in research literature (though manufacturers names are guarded). Heavy and fast transience for a start knackers you up because there isn't time for things to settle down and sort it out.

Im curious as to how start stop systems effect things ?surely the O2 sensor and cat won't work fully unless they reach and stay above a certain temprature ?..

[Scuffers]

powerstroke said:

Im curious as to how start stop systems effect things ?surely the O2 sensor and cat won't work fully unless they reach and stay above a certain temprature ?..

O2 sensors have heating elements in them.

Cat does not cool down that fast either.

Either way, makes no odds to N0x output.

[hornetrider]

This is an interesting development. The Feds have raided VW HQ in Wolfsburg for information on who is responsible in the decision making chain for installing the defeat devices.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3265110/Ge...

Squeaky bum time.

[Fastdruid]

powerstroke said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

I don't think there is a single modern engine that will get the emissions results we see on the tests out in the real world. There have been many PEMS tests showing this in research literature (though manufacturers names are guarded). Heavy and fast transience for a start knackers you up because there isn't time for things to settle down and sort it out.

Im curious as to how start stop systems effect things ?surely the O2 sensor and cat won't work fully unless they reach and stay above a certain temprature ?..

From what I've read stop/start actually really helps emissions (for a diesel) as quite apart from not emitting anything when it's off it stops things cooling down. Seems crazy that it stays hotter by being off but the exhaust (at idle) is just too cool and you need the exhaust nice and hot.

[RYH64E]

hornetrider said:

This is an interesting development. The Feds have raided VW HQ in Wolfsburg for information on who is responsible in the decision making chain for installing the defeat devices.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3265110/Ge...

Squeaky bum time.

As I've told several friends over the years, there are downsides to being a Company Director, it's not all about having a fancy title and a nice car.

Daily Mail article said:

The Justice Ministry in Washington, the Environmental Protection Agency and prosecutors in all 50 states have written to the VW board at Wolfsburg to warn that they expect senior managers to be delivered to America for trial if they are linked to Europe's greatest postwar industrial fraud.

[Munter]

Scuffers said:

Munter said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

Bit of a leap there.

Just because the car is included in those with the cheat in the ECU, doesn't have any hard relationship to if it can pass the EU5 test. It may pass without the cheat anyway. VW would still do a recall to remove the cheat.

not really no.

Yes, cars in the US have been sold without and used extensive SW cheats to pass the test, it's not that easy to do the same for EU5/6 as the test is different (although still far from perfect).

Because the EU limits are higher, you're saying it's harder for the cars to pass the test without adblue?

Just because a car is being listed as having the cheat in the ECU, is not a fact that indicates that it has to have an adblue system as part of the recall. VW might simply just have to remove the cheat code (for PR and legal reasons, not technical ones), and that particular engine in that particular model, could be able to pass the EU5 test.

Being able or not to pass the test without invoking the cheat, can only be ruled on by running the test without the cheat. Not if the car is listed as being in the recall. That's not to say VW will not decide to fit some engine/model combinations with an adblue system. I'm just pointing out that there is no factual link between a car being listed as having the cheat code, and needing an adblue system. The two things are, at this time, unconnected.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Fastdruid said:

powerstroke said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

I don't think there is a single modern engine that will get the emissions results we see on the tests out in the real world. There have been many PEMS tests showing this in research literature (though manufacturers names are guarded). Heavy and fast transience for a start knackers you up because there isn't time for things to settle down and sort it out.

Im curious as to how start stop systems effect things ?surely the O2 sensor and cat won't work fully unless they reach and stay above a certain temprature ?..

From what I've read stop/start actually really helps emissions (for a diesel) as quite apart from not emitting anything when it's off it stops things cooling down. Seems crazy that it stays hotter by being off but the exhaust (at idle) is just too cool and you need the exhaust nice and hot.

Diesel at idle has a ridiculously high AFR, Looking at some data for a 11 liter engine we have here the AFR is over 100:1 (granted this is at 1200 RPM, no load, but proper idle will have some similarly high number). You're basically just pumping air, all that air is taking the engine heat away with it.