Half a million VWs recalled, sneaky emissions software.

[Munter]

Scuffers said:

Munter said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

Bit of a leap there.

Just because the car is included in those with the cheat in the ECU, doesn't have any hard relationship to if it can pass the EU5 test. It may pass without the cheat anyway. VW would still do a recall to remove the cheat.

not really no.

Yes, cars in the US have been sold without and used extensive SW cheats to pass the test, it's not that easy to do the same for EU5/6 as the test is different (although still far from perfect).

Because the EU limits are higher, you're saying it's harder for the cars to pass the test without adblue?

Just because a car is being listed as having the cheat in the ECU, is not a fact that indicates that it has to have an adblue system as part of the recall. VW might simply just have to remove the cheat code (for PR and legal reasons, not technical ones), and that particular engine in that particular model, could be able to pass the EU5 test.

Being able or not to pass the test without invoking the cheat, can only be ruled on by running the test without the cheat. Not if the car is listed as being in the recall. That's not to say VW will not decide to fit some engine/model combinations with an adblue system. I'm just pointing out that there is no factual link between a car being listed as having the cheat code, and needing an adblue system. The two things are, at this time, unconnected.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Fastdruid said:

powerstroke said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Scuffers said:

CocoPops said:

My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

the real problem here though is this, even if it had SCR (Adblue) fitted, it may well legitimately pass the current tests, BUT once on the road it's not going to get close, so what's the point?

We all realise now the test will have to change, but unless the targets do to, no car will be allowed on the road.

I don't think there is a single modern engine that will get the emissions results we see on the tests out in the real world. There have been many PEMS tests showing this in research literature (though manufacturers names are guarded). Heavy and fast transience for a start knackers you up because there isn't time for things to settle down and sort it out.

Im curious as to how start stop systems effect things ?surely the O2 sensor and cat won't work fully unless they reach and stay above a certain temprature ?..

From what I've read stop/start actually really helps emissions (for a diesel) as quite apart from not emitting anything when it's off it stops things cooling down. Seems crazy that it stays hotter by being off but the exhaust (at idle) is just too cool and you need the exhaust nice and hot.

Diesel at idle has a ridiculously high AFR, Looking at some data for a 11 liter engine we have here the AFR is over 100:1 (granted this is at 1200 RPM, no load, but proper idle will have some similarly high number). You're basically just pumping air, all that air is taking the engine heat away with it.

[richie99]

I'm baffled what VW are proposing to achieve with a recall. If all they propose to do is remove a software cheat that only ever activates during test conditions, then what is the point? It will never be activated again in the life of the car.

If they are proposing to retune the engine to try to improve the emissions, then surely that will just make them even worse to drive. If I owned one of these, I would not be letting it anywhere near an improvement to make it worse.

[KTF]

VW USA said:

"My understanding is that it was a couple of software engineers who put these in."

I find this very hard to believe.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34475408

[hornetrider]

KTF said:

The VW USA boss said:

"Mr Horn said: "My understanding is that it was a couple of software engineers who put these in.""

I find this very hard to believe.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34475408

Ridiculous.

[Fish]

My defender passes EU5 without adblue and actually does very few regens I believe.

Our Mazda CX5 is EU6 without adblue and I believe the only car to do it. The Skyactive engine is rather special though from an engineering perspective...

It is doable though.

[London424]

hornetrider said:

KTF said:

The VW USA boss said:

"Mr Horn said: "My understanding is that it was a couple of software engineers who put these in.""

I find this very hard to believe.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34475408

Ridiculous.

I was just coming on to post about that. I saw a snippet of the testimony and heard "it was a couple of software engineers" and nearly burst out laughing.

[Scuffers]

Fish said:

My defender passes EU5 without adblue and actually does very few regens I believe.

Our Mazda CX5 is EU6 without adblue and I believe the only car to do it. The Skyactive engine is rather special though from an engineering perspective...

It is doable though.

Missing the point.

Yes they can be made to scrape though the test, (must be some interesting mapping) but will be miles away in real world driving.

[Mr GrimNasty]

Scuffers said:

Fish said:

My defender passes EU5 without adblue and actually does very few regens I believe.

Our Mazda CX5 is EU6 without adblue and I believe the only car to do it. The Skyactive engine is rather special though from an engineering perspective...

It is doable though.

Missing the point.

Yes they can be made to scrape though the test, (must be some interesting mapping) but will be miles away in real world driving.

No that's the point entirely, they only have to pass the tests in the way in which the tests were run at the time of production.

What happens in the real world is completely irrelevant.

But in the real world, all Euro 5 & 6 engines by all manufacturers are pretty much of a muchness in road side drive by tests, VW group are not the worst, and all petrol cars exceed massively too, and do you know what type of cars exceed stated emissions by the greatest margin in the real world - hybrids.

The word is that about 430,000 American cars will require physical alterations, the rest remaps, so Europe probably just software update for the technicality of removing the cheat logic.

[Scuffers]

Mr GrimNasty said:

No that's the point entirely, they only have to pass the tests in the way in which the tests were run at the time of production.

What happens in the real world is completely irrelevant.

But in the real world, all Euro 5 & 6 engines by all manufacturers are pretty much of a muchness in road side drive by tests, VW group are not the worst, and all petrol cars exceed massively too, and do you know what type of cars exceed stated emissions by the greatest margin in the real world - hybrids.

The word is that about 430,000 American cars will require physical alterations, the rest remaps.

No argument there.

That's not really what I was answering.

Munter said:

Because the EU limits are higher, you're saying it's harder for the cars to pass the test without adblue?

Yes,

The limit may be lower, but the test methodology is different.

Any measurement on its own is meaningless without the test methodology being specified.

[Fastdruid]

Mr GrimNasty said:

But in the real world, all Euro 5 & 6 engines by all manufacturers are pretty much of a muchness in road side drive by tests, VW group are not the worst, and all petrol cars exceed massively too,

No they don't.

Here have a study to prove it (page 28 FYI).
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Driv...

TL;DR: Diesels exceed Euro NOx limits in "real world" driving tests at all levels, Petrols don't.

[karma mechanic]

Fish said:

Our Mazda CX5 is EU6 without adblue and I believe the only car to do it.

Current BMW 3-series diesels don't use Adblue/SCR and they are all EU6. Instead they use a stage called NOx Storage Catalyst (NSC) as part of the DPF.
However, the 5-series cars do use SCR.

[Munter]

Scuffers said:

Fish said:

My defender passes EU5 without adblue and actually does very few regens I believe.

Our Mazda CX5 is EU6 without adblue and I believe the only car to do it. The Skyactive engine is rather special though from an engineering perspective...

It is doable though.

Missing the point.

Yes they can be made to scrape though the test, (must be some interesting mapping) but will be miles away in real world driving.

But what has real world driving got to do with VW getting cars to pass the EU tests? Absolutely nobody is suggesting VW need to make the cars meet the emissions requirements with real world drivers in the real world. They just need to make sure they pass the relevant EU test for their type approval/sale date. Which for EU5 can be done without adblue by most engine/car combinations from other manufacturers, so likely can be done by VW. We don't even know if they'll have to tweek the map to pass the test. They might not.

So running around saying they'll all need adblue seems a bit premature.

[Scuffers]

karma mechanic said:

Fish said:

Our Mazda CX5 is EU6 without adblue and I believe the only car to do it.

Current BMW 3-series diesels don't use Adblue/SCR and they are all EU6. Instead they use a stage called NOx Storage Catalyst (NSC) as part of the DPF.
However, the 5-series cars do use SCR.

From Wikipedia.

A NOx trap is used on the Volkswagen Jetta Clean TDI and the Volkswagen Tiguan concepts. Both are projected to be introduced into the American market by 2008.[2] They were to be marketed as part of the BlueTec program from Audi, Daimler-Chrysler, and Volkswagen.


Ohps....

[karma mechanic]

Yes, using Lean NOx Traps didn't seem to work out that well for VW, hence the software cheat. Some good info here: http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs...

US BMWs all use SCR, while European 3-series use a NOx Trap. This will run and run.

[joe_90]

London424 said:

I was just coming on to post about that. I saw a snippet of the testimony and heard "it was a couple of software engineers" and nearly burst out laughing.

No auditing, no QA, nothing.. just a couple of random devs for no reason decided one day to lower the emissions with no review or oversight.

The idiot does not clearly understand how software dev on mission critical systems works.

[Scuffers]

Munter said:

But what has real world driving got to do with VW getting cars to pass the EU tests? Absolutely nobody is suggesting VW need to make the cars meet the emissions requirements with real world drivers in the real world. They just need to make sure they pass the relevant EU test for their type approval/sale date. Which for EU5 can be done without adblue by most engine/car combinations from other manufacturers, so likely can be done by VW. We don't even know if they'll have to tweek the map to pass the test. They might not.

So running around saying they'll all need adblue seems a bit premature.

I'm not arguing that.

What I am saying is this:

1) you cannot just compare the US and EU NOx limits as the test methodologies are very different.
2) no matter what the 'test' figures are, the real world ones will be nothing like.
3) IMHO it's impossible to meet EU6 without SCR unless you are doing some massive test-based cheating.
4) NOx storage systems are currently not going to cut it except in the controlled environment of the current tests.

does that make my POV clear for you?

[RYH64E]

Mr GrimNasty said:

No that's the point entirely, they only have to pass the tests in the way in which the tests were run at the time of production.

What happens in the real world is completely irrelevant.

The point is that they have to pass the test using a real world engine map, one that produces emissions at or below the limit in the test without unduly compromising daily driving performance. What they've had before is have a test map, that's good for emissions but probably not so good for driving, and a real world map that's crap for emissions but good for driving, they can't do that now.

If they have a map that's good for both emissions and driving then surely they wouldn't have had to cheat?

[Munter]

Scuffers said:

Munter said:

But what has real world driving got to do with VW getting cars to pass the EU tests? Absolutely nobody is suggesting VW need to make the cars meet the emissions requirements with real world drivers in the real world. They just need to make sure they pass the relevant EU test for their type approval/sale date. Which for EU5 can be done without adblue by most engine/car combinations from other manufacturers, so likely can be done by VW. We don't even know if they'll have to tweek the map to pass the test. They might not.

So running around saying they'll all need adblue seems a bit premature.

I'm not arguing that.

What I am saying is this:

1) you cannot just compare the US and EU NOx limits as the test methodologies are very different.
2) no matter what the 'test' figures are, the real world ones will be nothing like.
3) IMHO it's impossible to meet EU6 without SCR unless you are doing some massive test-based cheating.
4) NOx storage systems are currently not going to cut it except in the controlled environment of the current tests.

does that make my POV clear for you?

So this was a typo?

Scuffers said:

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

Or you did what I said. You made a leap that wasn't right. We do not know that CocoPops (EU5) Q3 will have to have adblue fitted, just because it's in the recall. All we know is that the Q3 has the cheat code in it's ECU. How they need to modify it to legitimately pass EU5 could be anything from, no changes except removing the cheat, to a new map and fancy capture in the exhaust, to adblue.

But this.

Scuffers said:

so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.

Deliberate or not, is wrong.

[Efbe]

And are we supposed to believe this has only happened with VW group on just one engine? yeah right.

I foresee this being a whole lot bigger.
Car manufacturer claims and reality is getting further and further apart.
though a different measure, try looking at the real world and claimed mpg on fuelly.com or spritmonitor.de.
The further forward in time you go, the more the disparity increases between reality and manufacturer claims.