Half a million VWs recalled, sneaky emissions software.
Discussion
Scuffers said:
no, I do not think you can legitimately get though EU5/6 (without SCR) without either cheating or putting up a engine that's crippled.
Which is not what you said. It's now. You can't get through EU5 (without a bunch of caveats which basically changes the point of the original post that I refuse to admit was a step too far because I can't be wrong about anything. And I'm adding EU6 to the situation to try an bolster my position even though I was specifically talking about EU5 to start with).Cars can pass EU5 without adblue. Can VW do it without affecting MPG or power? We'll have to wait and find out. But will they have to fit adblue to pass EU5 tests as you originally stated? Well you're now happy to accept that there probably other ways to do it in your posts. So lets say...no?
Munter said:
Which is not what you said. It's now. You can't get through EU5 (without a bunch of caveats which basically changes the point of the original post that I refuse to admit was a step too far because I can't be wrong about anything. And I'm adding EU6 to the situation to try an bolster my position even though I was specifically talking about EU5 to start with).
Cars can pass EU5 without adblue. Can VW do it without affecting MPG or power? We'll have to wait and find out. But will they have to fit adblue to pass EU5 tests as you originally stated? Well you're now happy to accept that there probably other ways to do it in your posts. So lets say...no?
Look, you're just playing with semantics now, you know full well what I am getting at, stop being a prat.Cars can pass EU5 without adblue. Can VW do it without affecting MPG or power? We'll have to wait and find out. But will they have to fit adblue to pass EU5 tests as you originally stated? Well you're now happy to accept that there probably other ways to do it in your posts. So lets say...no?
Munter said:
Scuffers said:
Look, you're just playing with semantics now, you know full well what I am getting at, stop being a prat.
Umm... You were the one maintaining and defending a post saying the wrong thing. So you know full well what I am getting at, stop being a prat.I stand by my comment, if you can so easily achieve genuine EU5 compliance without SCR and not cheating, why have VW had to cheat?
FFS get a grip/life.
KTF said:
Scuffers said:
I stand by my comment, if you can so easily achieve genuine EU5 compliance without SCR and not cheating, why have VW had to cheat?
Have they said that they have cheated to get EU5 compliance as I thought this was related to the US emissions testing?Efbe said:
And are we supposed to believe this has only happened with VW group on just one engine? yeah right.
I foresee this being a whole lot bigger.
Car manufacturer claims and reality is getting further and further apart.
though a different measure, try looking at the real world and claimed mpg on fuelly.com or spritmonitor.de.
The further forward in time you go, the more the disparity increases between reality and manufacturer claims.
They aren't claims, they are test results.I foresee this being a whole lot bigger.
Car manufacturer claims and reality is getting further and further apart.
though a different measure, try looking at the real world and claimed mpg on fuelly.com or spritmonitor.de.
The further forward in time you go, the more the disparity increases between reality and manufacturer claims.
If the test doesn't match reality, change the test.
I don't think it's going to get bigger, I really don't.
Scuffers said:
KTF said:
Scuffers said:
I stand by my comment, if you can so easily achieve genuine EU5 compliance without SCR and not cheating, why have VW had to cheat?
Have they said that they have cheated to get EU5 compliance as I thought this was related to the US emissions testing?Baseline coding for the engine will be generic, tweaked for each market. Once the cheat is in for NAS, it stays in, but that doesn't mean its used (or required) for EU5.
Scuffers said:
Munter said:
Scuffers said:
Look, you're just playing with semantics now, you know full well what I am getting at, stop being a prat.
Umm... You were the one maintaining and defending a post saying the wrong thing. So you know full well what I am getting at, stop being a prat.I stand by my comment, if you can so easily achieve genuine EU5 compliance without SCR and not cheating, why have VW had to cheat?
FFS get a grip/life.
Jumping to conclusions with no actual supporting facts is just going to confuse people. The reason I'm making this point is that there could have been people reading this, thinking their car will have to have an adblue system based on what you said. But what you said isn't supported by the evidence you give.
Evidence = VW will recall some cars, and they have listed those cars.
Conclusion = VW will recall some cars to do something. But we do not know what.
Speculation = EU5 cars might have very few physical changes as other manufacturers manage to get EU5 compliance without too much trouble. MPG and/or power may be affected or might not. EU6 cars are likely going to have to have more extensive work than the EU5 cars. But the whole situation is full of "we do not knows" until VW test the cars, decide what to do, and tell people.
Munter said:
As mondeoman says. We don't know that they had to. The ECUs are very likely to be a generic component. I've said previously it's a possibility the recall will just remove the cheat code and change nothing else. We just don't know at this time what (if anything) is needed to make the cars meet EU5.
Jumping to conclusions with no actual supporting facts is just going to confuse people. The reason I'm making this point is that there could have been people reading this, thinking their car will have to have an adblue system based on what you said. But what you said isn't supported by the evidence you give.
Evidence = VW will recall some cars, and they have listed those cars.
Conclusion = VW will recall some cars to do something. But we do not know what.
Speculation = EU5 cars might have very few physical changes as other manufacturers manage to get EU5 compliance without too much trouble. MPG and/or power may be affected or might not. EU6 cars are likely going to have to have more extensive work than the EU5 cars. But the whole situation is full of "we do not knows" until VW test the cars, decide what to do, and tell people.
I quoted a table from a Wiki article a few pages back (reproduced below), it shows that actual test results are significantly higher than both US and EU5 limits, if the car fails one test it will almost certainly fail the other, if it needs a cheat to pass one test it will need the same cheat to pass the other, actual results weren't even close to those achieved with the cheat in place.Jumping to conclusions with no actual supporting facts is just going to confuse people. The reason I'm making this point is that there could have been people reading this, thinking their car will have to have an adblue system based on what you said. But what you said isn't supported by the evidence you give.
Evidence = VW will recall some cars, and they have listed those cars.
Conclusion = VW will recall some cars to do something. But we do not know what.
Speculation = EU5 cars might have very few physical changes as other manufacturers manage to get EU5 compliance without too much trouble. MPG and/or power may be affected or might not. EU6 cars are likely going to have to have more extensive work than the EU5 cars. But the whole situation is full of "we do not knows" until VW test the cars, decide what to do, and tell people.
The US limits for NOx are 0.043 g/km, the official test results were 0.022 and 0.016 g/km for cars without SCR/Adblue and with, actual figues are 0.61-1.5 g/km and 0.34-0.67 g/km for the car with SCR/Adblue. The Euro5 limit is 0.18 g/km and both cars have been tested at 0.62 g/km.
Scuffers said:
CocoPops said:
My Audi Q3 2.0 177 that is a Euro5 engine and does NOT have Ad-Blue and IS affected according to Audi VIN checker.
so, that pretty much backs up my point, you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue.Did not, in any way, mean to indicate, that to get EU5 approval, a car would have to have an adblue system?
Either that's a typo and you meant EU6. But then it doesn't relate to Cocopops situation.
Or it's a statement that you are now saying you don't know to be true. Which is fine. You quickly jumped to a conclusion that the evidence didn't support, and then over time realise it's the wrong conclusion. We've all been there. But stop defending it as fact in one sentence, and then contradicting it in the next. That helps nobody learn anything about the situation.
RYH64E said:
Munter said:
As mondeoman says. We don't know that they had to. The ECUs are very likely to be a generic component. I've said previously it's a possibility the recall will just remove the cheat code and change nothing else. We just don't know at this time what (if anything) is needed to make the cars meet EU5.
I quoted a table from a Wiki article a few pages back (reproduced below), it shows that actual test results are significantly higher than both US and EU5 limits, if the car fails one test it will almost certainly fail the other, if it needs a cheat to pass one test it will need the same cheat to pass the other, actual results weren't even close to those achieved with the cheat in place.But we still don't know what the change is that might be needed to meet the test. It could still be as remap, and VW relied on the cheat code because they could. (Why cheat and do the real work, you just do one or the other.)
I'm still not seeing any hard evidence that adblue is the solution VW will have to implement for those cars.
Munter said:
Ok so it's more than just remove he cheat code for that example. Fair enough.
But we still don't know what the change is that might be needed to meet the test. It could still be as remap, and VW relied on the cheat code because they could. (Why cheat and do the real work, you just do one or the other.)
I'm still not seeing any hard evidence that adblue is the solution VW will have to implement for those cars.
I'm not seeing any evidence that the cars will pass the test even with Adblue (even if such a system could be retrofitted economically), that table shows that the SCR/Adblue equipped car still failed both tests.But we still don't know what the change is that might be needed to meet the test. It could still be as remap, and VW relied on the cheat code because they could. (Why cheat and do the real work, you just do one or the other.)
I'm still not seeing any hard evidence that adblue is the solution VW will have to implement for those cars.
The way I see it is that VW could almost certainly get the cars to pass the EU5 test with a remap, but will the resulting performance/economy be acceptable to the owner? I think they've got a real problem on their hands trying to satisfy both the regulators and their customers, especially in the US.
Munter said:
So your point and I quote: "you cannot legitimately get though EU5 without adblue."
Did not, in any way, mean to indicate, that to get EU5 approval, a car would have to have an adblue system?
I guess this means that many of the affected cars won't meet EU5 regulations without SCR/Adblue? I can't think why VW would consider such a costly fix if there was an easier alternative possible. That's not going to be cheap.Did not, in any way, mean to indicate, that to get EU5 approval, a car would have to have an adblue system?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/09/vw...
Guardian said:
Almost half of the Volkswagen cars in Europe affected by the diesel emissions scandal require major hardware changes – including the installation of new parts – in order to meet pollution standards.
The revelation by the German transport ministry that 3.6m cars in Europe require hardware changes underlines the scale and expense of the repairs that will be required as a result of the scandal.
Michael Horn, the boss of VW in America, told a congressional hearing on Thursday that the hardware fix was “complex” and could involve a new fuel injector tank being fitted to cars.
The revelation by the German transport ministry that 3.6m cars in Europe require hardware changes underlines the scale and expense of the repairs that will be required as a result of the scandal.
Michael Horn, the boss of VW in America, told a congressional hearing on Thursday that the hardware fix was “complex” and could involve a new fuel injector tank being fitted to cars.
RYH64E said:
fblm said:
130R said:
I have no sympathy for anyone that actually bought a 1.6 litre diesel.
And they have the audacity to complain that a recall might dent performance!Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff