Half a million VWs recalled, sneaky emissions software.

[KTF]

MarshPhantom said:

VW shares down 20%.

The fines could be up to $18bn.

BBC News said:

The EPA said that the fine for each vehicle that did not comply with federal clean air rules would be up to $37,500 (£24,000). With 482,000 cars sold since 2008 involved in the allegations, it means the fines could reach $18bn.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34311819

[Scuffers]

steady on...

I would be shocked if *all* the other majors are not doing exactly the same, they would be fools not to if you want to sell cars under the regime created around emissions.

The question I have is what does the US legislation actually say?

if it's 'this is the test you have to submit to and pass' then they have done nothing wrong.

if it's actually says you must not write the SW to specifically pass this test, then that's a problem.

issue I can see is this will be like the US treatment of BP, not a US company so let's shaft them.

[Burwood]

One other huge liability is the actual recall. It isn't as simple as plugging in a computer and changing the tune such that the real emissions are being read. Many of these cars will fail the test and be taxed higher or not be allowed on the road in certain states. VW will be looking at significant compensation.

The fines noted above per vehicle whilst indicative will be thrown out the window. If the company knowingly deceived then the fines are unlimited. We know how the US car makers must love VW.

It's possible they have cheated in other countries too.

[Scuffers]

Burwood said:

It's possible they have cheated in other countries too.

you need to explain how this is cheating?

(in the context of how testing is done globally.)

[Burwood]

Scuffers said:

steady on...

I would be shocked if *all* the other majors are not doing exactly the same, they would be fools not to if you want to sell cars under the regime created around emissions.

The question I have is what does the US legislation actually say?

if it's 'this is the test you have to submit to and pass' then they have done nothing wrong.

if it's actually says you must not write the SW to specifically pass this test, then that's a problem.

issue I can see is this will be like the US treatment of BP, not a US company so let's shaft them.

Scuffers, on the basis, this is at a Federal level, it isn't a minor issue. One doesn't have to know what the legislation says to know that if the results are manipulated during a test cycle, VW are in big trouble. Lying to the Federal Govt (CEO has apologised so appears so)

[Scuffers]

Burwood said:

Scuffers, on the basis, this is at a Federal level, it isn't a minor issue. One doesn't have to know what the legislation says to know that if the results are manipulated during a test cycle, VW are in big trouble. Lying to the Federal Govt (CEO has apologised so appears so)

I get that, my point is *all* the majors will be doing the same thing.

the fault here is the test and the legislation that places so much emphasis on a test that was never designed to be used like it is now.

Look, at the end of the day, this is into politics now.

[Burwood]

Scuffers said:

Burwood said:

It's possible they have cheated in other countries too.

you need to explain how this is cheating?

(in the context of how testing is done globally.)

They cheated in the US. I'm just saying they may get caught doing similar things elsewhere. Just a possibility.

[mini me]

Scuffers said:

you need to explain how this is cheating?

(in the context of how testing is done globally.)

They have developed software which detects when the vehicle is on a dyno running a test and runs a completely different calibration. This is specifically to pass the test. Once driven on the road the software detects the absence of test and pretty much switches off the emissions control devices. Its called a defeat device and is very very naughty.

[Scuffers]

Burwood said:

They cheated in the US. I'm just saying they may get caught doing similar things elsewhere. Just a possibility.

answer the question.

how is what they have been alleged to do cheating?

[Burwood]

Scuffers said:

Burwood said:

They cheated in the US. I'm just saying they may get caught doing similar things elsewhere. Just a possibility.

answer the question.

how is what they have been alleged to do cheating?

“A sophisticated software algorithm on certain Volkswagen vehicles detects when the car is undergoing official emissions testing, and turns full emissions controls on only during the test,” the EPA said in a statement. “The effectiveness of these vehicles’ pollution emissions control devices is greatly reduced during all normal driving situations. This results in cars that meet emissions standards in the laboratory or testing station, but during normal operation, emit nitrogen oxides, or NOx, at up to 40 times the standard.”

Richard Corey, executive officer of the California Air Resources Board (Carb), said: “Our goal now is to ensure that the affected cars are brought into compliance, to dig more deeply into the extent and implications of Volkswagen’s efforts to CHEAT on clean air rules, and to take appropriate further action.”

[RobGT81]

The cars in question pass the test though, which is why the test is wrong, not the cars.

[Willy Nilly]

RobGT81 said:

The cars in question pass the test though, which is why the test is wrong, not the cars.

They passed the test by cheating though. Lance Armstrong was cheating and so was everyone else, he was the best at cheating and won, but he was still cheating.

[130R]

RobGT81 said:

The cars in question pass the test though, which is why the test is wrong, not the cars.

Yep good luck with that defence against the US government

[RobGT81]

130R said:

Yep good luck with that defence against the US government

Well yeah they're proper fked I expect. Plenty of OEMs fiddling with their engine calibrations this morning I reckon.

[V8A*ndy]

FFS if they were not cheating then why the feck have they "apologised".

They have ordered an internal investigation "We do not and will not tolerate violations of any kind of our internal rules or of the law"

Meaning there will be a scapegoat announced shortly..... Probably.

[Munter]

130R said:

RobGT81 said:

The cars in question pass the test though, which is why the test is wrong, not the cars.

Yep good luck with that defence against the US government

Indeed. This isn't redbull and flexy wings vs F1 management. This is "evil non US" company vs the US Gov.

[Burwood]

Wait until making the cars compliant saps all their power. VWs auditors, PWC just grew their fees for this year and next. Going Concern issues perhaps?

[loose cannon]

Scuffers said:

answer the question.

how is what they have been alleged to do cheating?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-19/vw-clean-diesel-scheme-exposed-as-u-s-weighs-criminal-charges

[Scuffers]

Munter said:

130R said:

RobGT81 said:

The cars in question pass the test though, which is why the test is wrong, not the cars.

Yep good luck with that defence against the US government

Indeed. This isn't redbull and flexy wings vs F1 management. This is "evil non US" company vs the US Gov.

this ^^^

this is nothing more than blatant US protectionism dressed up in environmental issues.

• ALL* car makers will be doing the same thing, but no US one will ever be 'charged'.

this is BP Deepwater Horizon all over again.

[SpeckledJim]

Scuffers said:

Burwood said:

They cheated in the US. I'm just saying they may get caught doing similar things elsewhere. Just a possibility.

answer the question.

how is what they have been alleged to do cheating?

Because the test is *supposed* to be examining the cars doing some things they do in normal operation. VW subverted that, and produced cars that as tested were NOT doing things they do in normal operation.

And more practically speaking, it was cheating because the person who decides these things in the US says it was.

And what he says, goes. I hope he never says I've been cheating at anything.