Should the railways be nationalised?
Poll: Should the railways be nationalised?
Total Members Polled: 471
Discussion
RichB said:
Esseesse said:
'Should the railways be nationalised?'
This implies that they're privatised now. However, are they as privatised as they once were? When all the lines (and branch lines) were built, were they not privately owned? Doesn't the government now own/maintain the lines? Back in the day were ticket prices subsidised by the government? Could it be better if we went back to something more like this?
The railway boom of the mid 19thC saw lines being built everywhere by private investors. If you look at the history of the railways there were lines from the most obscure village to somewhere else, often used for goods; getting cattle, sheep, corn and wheat etc. to market towns. Most had gone bankrupt by 1900 and all long since gone. The idea that there can be any competition on the railways is a strange one. There cannot really be true competition because the rails all simply go from A to B, so what will you do, wait for another train because it's cheaper or has better seats? I guess it may be faster but then you have that choice now. I accept that from London to Scotland this may have been the case but one line went to Edinburgh up the east coast the other to Glasgow via the west so frankly still not really a choice. The great railway advertising that you saw in the 1930s was to attract customers to go to holiday destinations in their region so not really what we're talking about these days when we say there's no competition. Hummm shall I go to Morcombe Bay from Euston or Paignton on the GWR what a choice... This implies that they're privatised now. However, are they as privatised as they once were? When all the lines (and branch lines) were built, were they not privately owned? Doesn't the government now own/maintain the lines? Back in the day were ticket prices subsidised by the government? Could it be better if we went back to something more like this?
People then forget, or weren't born, when the railways were nationalised; British Railways were slow, dirty, strike ridden and under invested. In fact the dreadful lack of investment in the railways by any government after the war up to the '70s lead to the state they were in 10-20 years ago.
The real issue now is the way it's been privatised, instead of breaking it into regions the government decided that the rails (and infrastructure) would be one company and the trains run like privatised buses on someone else's track. Personally I would have liked to see it revert to 4 main operating companies with responsibility for everything in their region. I still think this would be better than re-nationalisation.
. Why did they go bankrupt by 1900, surely the job of moving stuff to market had not disappeared and there were not yet large lorries?I agree largely with there not being able to be any true competition. I suppose maybe there could be for the situations where the railway is able to compete with the car?
Incidentally, I took my son to the Nene Valley Railway (NVR) a few weekends ago. Interestingly, many commuters use the line to get in to Peterborough. I think NVR actually own the line. Presumably it is profitable for them to operate steam trains (!!!) on this line, albeit with charitable (lower tax?) status. Maybe the problem is over taxation
.RichB said:
Go on... in "future world" how? Would all season tickets have a chip and tag you as you boarded a train and then inform the train company which train you travelled on? I genuinely dunno?
PA announcement: The system has detected that someone on the train is travelling with an incorrect ticket. Until that person gets off the train we are not going anywhere....KTF said:
V8mate said:
Technology. Don't reflect on the past.
So each time someone wants to get on a train they would have to beep their ticket oyster style in a turnstile or similar in order to get on the platform?
KTF said:
RichB said:
Go on... in "future world" how? Would all season tickets have a chip and tag you as you boarded a train and then inform the train company which train you travelled on? I genuinely dunno?
PA announcement: The system has detected that someone on the train is travelling with an incorrect ticket. Until that person gets off the train we are not going anywhere....
Some drivers would love that. On the tube the other day I heard, "Yes, the doors are those big silver things that slide. Until the person blocking them lets the shut we're not moving...!" RichB said:
V8mate said:
Technology. Don't reflect on the past.
Go on... in "future world" how? Would all season tickets have a chip and tag you as you boarded a train and then inform the train company which train you travelled on? I genuinely dunno?But it doesn't matter that you don't you know how it might work, and it doesn't matter that I don't know how it might work. What I do know, is that there's technology capable of solving the problem.
RichB said:
But then you'd still jump on any train. Remember in this scenario the platforms are run by Network Rail but the trains are in competition. Imagine being on the platform at Moorgate, so you're past the Oyster swipe turnstile and you have the choice of Metropolitan, Circle, Hammersmith & City and Northern Line all run by different operators all wanting their slice of the revenue.
Ever used the tram system in Amsterdam? People swip cards on the way onto the train and it either uses credit on the cards or debits an account associated with the card. A guard is present to ensure that everyone who boards swipes a card.
dci said:
Ever used the tram system in Amsterdam? People swip cards on the way onto the train and it either uses credit on the cards or debits an account associated with the card. A guard is present to ensure that everyone who boards swipes a card.
No I haven't so I can't compare but I imagine that on the 7:09 from Clapham to Waterloo it would mean having a guard on every door. Mick Cash would love it! Hey I'm not being negative - honestly!
RichB said:
dci said:
Ever used the tram system in Amsterdam? People swip cards on the way onto the train and it either uses credit on the cards or debits an account associated with the card. A guard is present to ensure that everyone who boards swipes a card.
No I haven't so I can't compare but I imagine that on the 7:09 from Clapham to Waterloo it would mean having a guard on every door. Mick Cash would love it! Hey I'm not being negative - honestly!
That would show time, length of journey and operator.
loafer123 said:
RichB said:
dci said:
Ever used the tram system in Amsterdam? People swip cards on the way onto the train and it either uses credit on the cards or debits an account associated with the card. A guard is present to ensure that everyone who boards swipes a card.
No I haven't so I can't compare but I imagine that on the 7:09 from Clapham to Waterloo it would mean having a guard on every door. Mick Cash would love it! Hey I'm not being negative - honestly!
RichB said:
The railway boom of the mid 19thC saw lines being built everywhere by private investors. If you look at the history of the railways there were lines from the most obscure village to somewhere else, often used for goods; getting cattle, sheep, corn and wheat etc. to market towns. Most had gone bankrupt by 1900 and all long since gone. The idea that there can be any competition on the railways is a strange one. There cannot really be true competition because the rails all simply go from A to B, so what will you do, wait for another train because it's cheaper or has better seats? I guess it may be faster but then you have that choice now. I accept that from London to Scotland this may have been the case but one line went to Edinburgh up the east coast the other to Glasgow via the west so frankly still not really a choice. The great railway advertising that you saw in the 1930s was to attract customers to go to holiday destinations in their region so not really what we're talking about these days when we say there's no competition. Hummm shall I go to Morcombe Bay from Euston or Paignton on the GWR what a choice...
People then forget, or weren't born, when the railways were nationalised; British Railways were slow, dirty, strike ridden and under invested. In fact the dreadful lack of investment in the railways by any government after the war up to the '70s lead to the state they were in 10-20 years ago.
The real issue now is the way it's been privatised, instead of breaking it into regions the government decided that the rails (and infrastructure) would be one company and the trains run like privatised buses on someone else's track. Personally I would have liked to see it revert to 4 main operating companies with responsibility for everything in their region. I still think this would be better than re-nationalisation.
Nice history lesson, and I like that idea. Something needs to be done.People then forget, or weren't born, when the railways were nationalised; British Railways were slow, dirty, strike ridden and under invested. In fact the dreadful lack of investment in the railways by any government after the war up to the '70s lead to the state they were in 10-20 years ago.
The real issue now is the way it's been privatised, instead of breaking it into regions the government decided that the rails (and infrastructure) would be one company and the trains run like privatised buses on someone else's track. Personally I would have liked to see it revert to 4 main operating companies with responsibility for everything in their region. I still think this would be better than re-nationalisation.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Are you from Bolton, Tonker?
mph1977 said:
ah the great myths of european rail based on the LGVs and ICE with a bit of suburban Dutch / german / swiss railways through in
given that you don;t realise that the UK uses Standard guage track, i think your expert opinion can safely be ignored .
It's pretty obvious he's referring to loading gauge, as that does force the UK to order special custom rolling stock.given that you don;t realise that the UK uses Standard guage track, i think your expert opinion can safely be ignored .
hidetheelephants said:
mph1977 said:
ah the great myths of european rail based on the LGVs and ICE with a bit of suburban Dutch / german / swiss railways through in given that you don;t realise that the UK uses Standard guage track, i think your expert opinion can safely be ignored .
It's pretty obvious he's referring to loading gauge, as that does force the UK to order special custom rolling stock.
(also I suspect mph1977 meant TGV not LGV) By contrast the loading gauge refers to the clearance between the rolling stock and platforms, bridges, signals etc. In Europe they typically have a larger loading gauge meaning they can build larger coaches but still running on wheels set 4' 8 1/2" apart. This is why you see double-deck trains in Europe and not in Britain.
One exception to this is the GWR mainline to Bristol because this was originally built by Brunel to a 7' gauge, known as broad gauge, this means that even today you will see the platforms are spaced wider apart on ex-GWR mainline stations than on the relief (slow) lines where they were added after conversion to standard gauge.
The effect of this could be seen in the GWR's Dreadnought coach stock of the 1900s which were 6" wider than standard gauge coaches. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff