Redcar Steel plant
Discussion
As someone who works as a buyer in the steel industry I can tell you first hand that energy costs are a contributing factor, the deeper problem is an industry with a heavily unionised work force with its view set firmly on the past.
A lack of investment and large amounts of complacency have as much to do with it as climate charges.
I can buy steel less than half the cost of producing it locally, quality is the same and lead time is the same. They'll actually sell me what I need instead of whats easier for them to produce.
And before you all start its your own fault. Behaviour is driven entirely by consumers setting the price point.
A lack of investment and large amounts of complacency have as much to do with it as climate charges.
I can buy steel less than half the cost of producing it locally, quality is the same and lead time is the same. They'll actually sell me what I need instead of whats easier for them to produce.
And before you all start its your own fault. Behaviour is driven entirely by consumers setting the price point.
Five minutes on Google will confirm, the greenwash s
t is just a money making scam for the liberal elite. A government report highlighting that out businesses pay the highest energy bills in EU was stalled by Chris hulme, before he was arrested. Incidentally he now has a directorship with the American company supplying pellets to drax. It now appears biomass produces more co2 than gas!.
t is just a money making scam for the liberal elite. A government report highlighting that out businesses pay the highest energy bills in EU was stalled by Chris hulme, before he was arrested. Incidentally he now has a directorship with the American company supplying pellets to drax. It now appears biomass produces more co2 than gas!. W
Superb isn't it. Let's see millipede try and cap energy prices there ( yes I know he's working at pound land now and it's all hypothetical but you get the idea). It's so embarrassing that aholes like these end up making grown up decisions, it really is utter madness, and we pay for it. I would quite happily throttle him till he actually gave a reasoned argument why he was a traitor.
vonuber said:
markcoznottz said:
A government report highlighting that out businesses pay the highest energy bills in EU
Is this the same Government that is guaranteeing double the unit rate cost of electricity in its deal with China? The bill which will be picked up by the Public and taxpayers?holes like these end up making grown up decisions, it really is utter madness, and we pay for it. I would quite happily throttle him till he actually gave a reasoned argument why he was a traitor. vonuber said:
What, Cameron? He's the one signing the deal.
Yep. IIRC didn't CMD go on a trade mission to China a few years back with his FIL in tow who, coincidentally, owns a windy-mill factory?I notice wind power has yet to receive the same treatment as the solar feed-in tariff...
fblm said:
The tories actually have an opportunity to save the steel industry and change their image for ever.
That is a very good point but, as in the throes of the GFC, I am fairly sure they will be caught flat-footed and gormless - either failing to see the pass or fumbling the ball.Scuffers said:
s2art said:
First they would have to get permission from Brussels, as it would contravene EU competition law. May not be as easy as it sounds.
has not stopped both Italy and Germany doing such?markcoznottz said:
. It now appears biomass produces more co2 than gas!.
Some things to think about before putting too much emphasis on that point.Naturally, biomass having less calorific value than gas or coal means that more has to be burnt for the same power output. This is nothing new or 'shocking'.
But, gas and coal (or any other type of fossil fuel) is 'trapped' - their CO2 content is locked in under ground in seams, pockets and lakes.
Biomass, on the other hand, releases the same amount of CO2 when burned as it would when left to grow,die and naturally rot.
Those pushing biomass are keen to point out that there is no net increase in CO2 - those pushing fossil fuels cannot make the same claim.
The waters are muddied when politics and economics are involved - biomass was originally a waste product from forestry and general woodwork concerns - that seems to be changing into forests being grown specifically for biomass use.
And that's without mentioning the costs of subsidising the whole business or transportation from North America.
Coal has been hit with a doubling in carbon-floor taxation this year making it very expensive and we no longer have 'viable' (1) seams to mine in this country (even though there are millions of tonnes of it available) so the power generators are faced with 'dirty' coal which is expensive to buy, expensive to burn and expensive to import from Australia and South America. When offered subsidies to burn biomass it's little wonder that's what they've chosen to concentrate on.
Unfortunately that means the death of Ferrybridge, Longannet, Cockemzie and numerous others over the past few years and it's not looking too good for Eggborough either - last I heard their appeal for help and subsidy to change to biomass burning was turned down - another smaller power station on the north east coast is currently trying to get the ok from the EU to turn from coal to bio.
Politics together with a few with their hands in the subsidy pot aren't making things easier
(1) Depending on who you listen to - there's increasing noise coming from advocates of re-opening opencast sites or 'easy to reach' deep seams in this country - abolish the 'green tax' killing coal and look at the real costs of importing Columbian coal and shipping it thousands of miles.
legzr1 said:
markcoznottz said:
. It now appears biomass produces more co2 than gas!.
Some things to think about before putting too much emphasis on that point.Naturally, biomass having less calorific value than gas or coal means that more has to be burnt for the same power output. This is nothing new or 'shocking'.
But, gas and coal (or any other type of fossil fuel) is 'trapped' - their CO2 content is locked in under ground in seams, pockets and lakes.
Biomass, on the other hand, releases the same amount of CO2 when burned as it would when left to grow,die and naturally rot.
Good job CO2 has done nothing to warm the global climate over the past ~19 years despite all the fossil fuel burning and veggies rotting, and has never led a temperature change ever within the geological record of carbon dioxide and temperature.
Have a read of what the former co-founder and Greenpeace leader has to say, it ought to be of interest.
http://www.thegwpf.org/patrick-moore-should-we-cel...
The part played by idiotic carbonphobia in impoverishing frozem pensioners and raising the costs / lowering the competitive position of industry is a scandal.
turbobloke said:
All that markcoznottz is doing is playing within the rules of the evil carbon dioxide believers; if there's more wicked carbons floating around it must be bad, right?
Good job CO2 has done nothing to warm the global climate over the past ~19 years despite all the fossil fuel burning and veggies rotting, and has never led a temperature change ever within the geological record of carbon dioxide and temperature.
Have a read of what the former co-founder and Greenpeace leader has to say, it ought to be of interest.
http://www.thegwpf.org/patrick-moore-should-we-cel...
The part played by idiotic carbonphobia in impoverishing frozem pensioners and raising the costs / lowering the competitive position of industry is a scandal.
I'm not about to get into all that greenhouse gas malarkey - there's a perfectly fine 1000+ post thread knocking around somewhere and I'm sure you're aware of it Good job CO2 has done nothing to warm the global climate over the past ~19 years despite all the fossil fuel burning and veggies rotting, and has never led a temperature change ever within the geological record of carbon dioxide and temperature.
Have a read of what the former co-founder and Greenpeace leader has to say, it ought to be of interest.
http://www.thegwpf.org/patrick-moore-should-we-cel...
The part played by idiotic carbonphobia in impoverishing frozem pensioners and raising the costs / lowering the competitive position of industry is a scandal.
My post was simply pointing out that, no matter what CO2 release does or does not do to the climate, it's a moot point anyway - burning fossil fuels releases MORE CO2, burning biomass does not.
"Biomass releases more CO2 than gas" is simply not true.
Well, unless you add the amount of CO2 in transporting and packaging the stuff...
Digga said:
Yep. IIRC didn't CMD go on a trade mission to China a few years back with his FIL in tow who, coincidentally, owns a windy-mill factory?
I notice wind power has yet to receive the same treatment as the solar feed-in tariff...
Yup. But this is PH, so it is all Labour's fault. I notice wind power has yet to receive the same treatment as the solar feed-in tariff...
Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
vonuber said:
Yup. But this is PH, so it is all Labour's fault.
Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
no need to be tribal, *ALL* of them are happily pushing us down this green route.Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
infact, the only party that's NOT pushing this way is UKIP
Scuffers said:
vonuber said:
Yup. But this is PH, so it is all Labour's fault.
Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
no need to be tribal, *ALL* of them are happily pushing us down this green route.Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
infact, the only party that's NOT pushing this way is UKIP
vonuber said:
Yup. But this is PH, so it is all Labour's fault.
Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
But it's all linked - we need an intelligent and MIXED forms of energy supply - over-reliance on biomass is no better than behaving like sluts with the Chinese and French (and state owned...) EDF.Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
legzr1 said:
vonuber said:
Yup. But this is PH, so it is all Labour's fault.
Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
But it's all linked - we need an intelligent and MIXED forms of energy supply - over-reliance on biomass is no better than behaving like sluts with the Chinese and French (and state owned...) EDF.Cameron et al are selling us down the river, yet people are arguing over biomass. Says it all.
We have no need of renewables, some in positions of authority want renewables. They're foolish.
Renewables simply cannot work
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