Redcar Steel plant

[Scuffers]

Strocky said:

Yep as an example, CE Marking that became mandatory last July is costing small fabricators in the region of £10-£20k for accreditation, for some with a small turnover, it's simply a cost that wasn't worth absorbing

and totally pointless when everything that comes in from China has the same marking (and almost certainly is not compliant!)

Whatever was wrong with the good old BS kite-mark!

[Strocky]

Scuffers said:

yes, but with Tata's plants etc it could have made up the required qty.

Also, Yes Tata are not british, but their plants are and that's the important bit, much like Jaguar Landrover.

I do take your point about not being about to bid for the really big stuff, but that's not really such an issue with stuff like bridge and ship building as they are not stuff that get's done at the drop of a hat, look how long we are still faffing about with the two carriers (and I wonder where the steel for them came from?)

Unfortunately the Forthspan consortium's bid (which Tata where part of) was £300m more than the winning consortium (although they argued their bid was technically more competent and lead to substantially less delays over the cheaper bid's build plan which could add delays to the job)

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/preferred...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/13147208.De...

[Scuffers]

Strocky said:

Unfortunately the Forthspan consortium's bid (which Tata where part of) was £300m more than the winning consortium (although they argued their bid was technically more competent and lead to substantially less delays over the cheaper bid's build plan which could add delays to the job)

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/preferred...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/13147208.De...

Hindsight, who would have guessed?

[FiF]

KarlMac said:

In my scenario I can buy steel from China and get a comparable product and be treated like a valued customer, or I can produce it in house and it will be out of spec and late

Obviously I don't know what you're buying but let me give you a story as balance.

A European materials manufacturer with a proven range of products in a grade, patented and trade marked. Sales lost to Chinese competition who basically marketed the product using the trade mark name and the UNS number despite not knowing the technical specifics of how to make it. Without going into details it needed very specific techniques at a particular step in the steel making and casting process. This meant that the performance of the material was deficient in strength and corrosion resistance.

When challenged about this they lied and lied again, even claiming at one point they were making it under license and process supervision by the inventor.

When the product failed early their response was industrial espionage to try and figure out what they were doing wrong.

Clearly you're going to have your opinion and I will have mine. But the point is that your bald statement that material of local manufacturing vs Chinese will always be late and out of spec is just frankly risible. 98%+ on time delivery record fwiw.

Completely standing by my comment of too many know the cost of everything and value of nothing.

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 28th October 11:19

[Digga]

FiF said:

KarlMac said:

In my scenario I can buy steel from China and get a comparable product and be treated like a valued customer, or I can produce it in house and it will be out of spec and late

Obviously I don't know what you're buying but let me give you a story as balance...

Here is another story:

telegraph said:

Chinese steel being imported into the UK could be putting lives and buildings at risk, as well as jobs.

Additives in some Chinese steel used to reinforce concrete can affect the metal’s strength when it is welded and now UK industry is highlighting the dangers posed by it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11762086/Warning-Chinese-steel-imports-could-be-safety-threat.html

Stable door horse bolt after:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/30/uk-eu-chi...


We use some Chinese metal components, but they are from known sources, where QC is in hand, but there are certain types of material - high performance - where we would not trust non-EU imports. For our highest wear and yield steels, we exclusively source "Hardox" material from SSAB Swedish Steel. In fact, rather than looking for cheaper alternatives, we are actually working more closely and becoming and audited, accredited partner.

[KarlMac]

Digga said:

FiF said:

KarlMac said:

In my scenario I can buy steel from China and get a comparable product and be treated like a valued customer, or I can produce it in house and it will be out of spec and late

Obviously I don't know what you're buying but let me give you a story as balance...

Here is another story:

telegraph said:

Chinese steel being imported into the UK could be putting lives and buildings at risk, as well as jobs.

Additives in some Chinese steel used to reinforce concrete can affect the metal’s strength when it is welded and now UK industry is highlighting the dangers posed by it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11762086/Warning-Chinese-steel-imports-could-be-safety-threat.html

Stable door horse bolt after:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/30/uk-eu-chi...


We use some Chinese metal components, but they are from known sources, where QC is in hand, but there are certain types of material - high performance - where we would not trust non-EU imports. For our highest wear and yield steels, we exclusively source "Hardox" material from SSAS Swedish Steel. In fact, rather than looking for cheaper alternatives, we are actually working more closely and becoming and audited, accredited partner.

So your suggesting 100% of British produced steel is without any fault whatsoever?

[Foppo]

Reminds me of the valve assembly in the Mexian Gulf on a BP rig.

Wasn't that made in China? Correct me if I'm wrong cost BP a lot of money and all the hardship to the local population.

[Digga]

KarlMac said:

So your suggesting 100% of British produced steel is without any fault whatsoever?

Not at all. Nor EU for that matter. No, there is a world of difference between certain types and sources of steel within these zones.

I'd also add that a lot of basic Chinese non-structural stuff is actually okay.

However, for high-grade work and with past (bad) experience of Korean steel, I would personally not chance it on high-strength work.

[FiF]

Digga said:

KarlMac said:

So your suggesting 100% of British produced steel is without any fault whatsoever?

Not at all. Nor EU for that matter. No, there is a world of difference between certain types and sources of steel within these zones.

I'd also add that a lot of basic Chinese non-structural stuff is actually okay.

However, for high-grade work and with past (bad) experience of Korean steel, I would personally not chance it on high-strength work.

I also am not suggesting that 100% of domestically produced steel and steel products are without fault. However you were strongly inferring it's 100% late and out of spec.

[killingjoker]

FiF said:

KarlMac said:

In my scenario I can buy steel from China and get a comparable product and be treated like a valued customer, or I can produce it in house and it will be out of spec and late

Obviously I don't know what you're buying but let me give you a story as balance.

A European materials manufacturer with a proven range of products in a grade, patented and trade marked. Sales lost to Chinese competition who basically marketed the product using the trade mark name and the UNS number despite not knowing the technical specifics of how to make it. Without going into details it needed very specific techniques at a particular step in the steel making and casting process. This meant that the performance of the material was deficient in strength and corrosion resistance.

When challenged about this they lied and lied again, even claiming at one point they were making it under license and process supervision by the inventor.

When the product failed early their response was industrial espionage to try and figure out what they were doing wrong.

Clearly you're going to have your opinion and I will have mine. But the point is that your bald statement that material of local manufacturing vs Chinese will always be late and out of spec is just frankly risible. 98%+ on time delivery record fwiw.

Completely standing by my comment of too many know the cost of everything and value of nothing.

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 28th October 11:19

Some here should read this and have a good think about your last sentence.

Nevermind about the workers eh? Profit for profit sake. As they can simply retrain and take a souless service industry job on zero hours contracts selling insurance.

If the government had put a 16th of what they have pumped into the banking system then our steel industry could have gone on another thirty years. Instead of which lives are ruined and we will be held to ransom for the price of steel in three decades time as we won't have a steel industry.

Edited by killingjoker on Wednesday 28th October 15:17

[V8 Fettler]

Scuffers said:

V8 Fettler said:

Sizewell C cost estimate in the mid-1990s was c£4billion as I recall. The Sizewell B team was still in place at that time, now long dispersed and typically retired.

interesting...

it;s amazing that at the time, the same old arguments were being talked to death:

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1990/jan/...

that's from 1990 arguing the case for Sizewell B!

This article was probably written in the early 1990s, projected cost for Sizewell C reported as £3.5billion http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/sizewell-is-t...

[Digga]

killingjoker said:

Some here should read this and have a good think about your last sentence.

Nevermind about the workers eh? Profit for profit sake. As they can simply retrain and take a souless service industry job on zero hours contracts selling insurance.

If the government had put a 16th of what they have pumped into the banking system then our steel industry could have gone on another thirty years. Instead of which lives are ruined and we will be held to ransom for the price of steel in three decades time as we won't have a steel industry.

Agreed, all this horsest about a Northern Powerhouse is never going to create 1,000+ new working jobs in Redcar to replace these and it's not going to put back the industrial infrastructure that's now lost for good.

And governments can find £40 odd million to throw at plausible minority-interest jesters like Yentob and Batmangehlidjh.

[dcb]

killingjoker said:

Nevermind about the workers eh? Profit for profit sake. As they can simply retrain and take a souless service industry job on zero hours contracts selling insurance.

Profit is a good thing. It's helped make the world go around
for the last 400 years or so. Think of the shareholders.

Let's not forget that manufacturing is about 12% (not 17% as previously advised)
of the UK economy. Steel making is only one part of manufacturing.

I'd rather be indoors warm, dry, no heavy lifting on the phone selling insurance than
risky work messing about with hundreds of tonnes of molten steel in a steel mill.

killingjoker said:

If the government had put a 16th of what they have pumped into the banking system then our steel industry could have gone on another thirty years. Instead of which lives are ruined and we will be held to ransom for the price of steel in three decades time as we won't have a steel industry.

The banking system is the central nervous system of the whole economy.

If the banking system blocks up, we are all in the brown stuff, not just
a few workers in NE England who have a trade that, for the ordinary steel
at least, the Chinese and many others, do cheaper.

Change is here to stay. For example, in my experience northern shipyard workers
out of work for years can be re-trained as southern hotel porters and waiters.

[Digga]

dcb said:

I'd rather be indoors warm, dry, no heavy lifting on the phone selling insurance than
risky work messing about with hundreds of tonnes of molten steel in a steel mill.

Bully for you, my little Southern seat-shiner, but consider someone else for a change; there are men and women out there who don't share your views. People who don't want a 'nice office job' (now known to be somewhat bad for your health, but that's another issue entirely) or, more importantly, are not and never will be qualified or equipped to work in the information and services economy but who will end up being a burden on the system if they do not have a labouring job to go to.

[Scuffers]

Digga said:

ully for you, my little Southern seat-shiner, but consider someone else for a change; there are men and women out there who don't share your views. People who don't want a 'nice office job' (now known to be somewhat bad for your health, but that's another issue entirely) or, more importantly, are not and never will be qualified or equipped to work in the information and services economy but who will end up being a burden on the system if they do not have a labouring job to go to.

if everybody works in insurance and banking, where does the money come from to pay for all these services?

[Digga]

Interesting piece on the potential impact on the town of Shorpe when Tata reviews plant early next year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34668504

BBC said:

...unions and Tata also point to high business rates and taxes...

Amen to that - we're all on the same hymn sheet there. Business rates could potentially kill all UK business, just as surely as energy taxes.

[FiF]

A post on this that was written yesterday seems to have disappeared in the latest PH forum wobble.

Interesting thing on BBC R4 Today programme yesterday morning.

Discussing this two things came out. Firstly that concerning closing or running down strategic industry or capabilities that the Ministry of Defence could have some very valid views about this.Although lack of national capability is nothing new, ref WW2 blockade busting runs between East Coast and Sweden transporting ball bearings and other materials.

Secondly the point was made that other countries treat such a situation completely differently in dealing with support for energy intensive industries. UK asks for permission from EU first, others, Germany, Italy and others were cited, organise and give the support and ask afterwards once the support is in place.

Thirdly Cameron's rhetoric on this was badly dismissed as empty words to kick the can down the road whilst appearing to care, and when anything gets further it will be too late.

Off topic, the Blockade busting mentioned above makes fascinating reading, there's a SOE Report by Sir George Binney who masterminded it, available in National Archives and released not so many years ago. Also a book Blockade Busters by Ralph Baker, well worth a read.

[Digga]

FiF said:

UK asks for permission from EU first, others, Germany, Italy and others were cited, organise and give the support and ask afterwards once the support is in place.

Not really sure why this is. Italy, especially, take the piss on a number of levells.

I suspect part of the answer is in the esteem that Engineers are held in; both in Italy and Germany, "Eng" is a title, in the way "Dr" is in this country. Unions have a much stronger (and probably more positive than the traditional UK them-and-us unions of the 1970s - hence the diverging success of our respective national automobile industries) role in both governance of industry and in politics in Germany, whereas - as I oft lament - the UK is home to the career politician.

[FiF]

Digga said:

FiF said:

UK asks for permission from EU first, others, Germany, Italy and others were cited, organise and give the support and ask afterwards once the support is in place.

Not really sure why this is. Italy, especially, take the piss on a number of levells.

I suspect part of the answer is in the esteem that Engineers are held in; both in Italy and Germany, "Eng" is a title, in the way "Dr" is in this country. Unions have a much stronger (and probably more positive than the traditional UK them-and-us unions of the 1970s - hence the diverging success of our respective national automobile industries) role in both governance of industry and in politics in Germany, whereas - as I oft lament - the UK is home to the career politician.

The other thing that frustrates me is that in Britain, and to be fair also in some other countries, is the way career politicians and managerialists rotate posts so frequently. This results in the frequent appointment of "know nothings" on the pretext that they aren't invested in the status quo and will bring fresh perspective. Too often they just bring a retinue of know nothing suck ups and mates.

[Scuffers]

Reminds me of the Ben elton sketch about a cabinet shuffle..

"Suit full of bigger all" springs to mind.