Redcar Steel plant

[glazbagun]

Axionknight said:

Didn't the UK government veto the EU tariffs on Chinese steel?

Can't actually find a lot on this (Google really is getting worse these days IMO) but it looks like they did block a means of increasing Chinese Steel tarriffs-

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/10/da...

And the Cons also voted down a Labour motion to support the steel industry, but finding details about what was proposex is proving beyond my google:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliam...

[Digga]

glazbagun said:

Axionknight said:

Didn't the UK government veto the EU tariffs on Chinese steel?

Can't actually find a lot on this (Google really is getting worse these days IMO) but it looks like they did block a means of increasing Chinese Steel tarriffs-

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/10/da...

And the Cons also voted down a Labour motion to support the steel industry, but finding details about what was proposex is proving beyond my google:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliam...

The government is a confederacy of dunces. They all know how to climb the greasy pole of UK politics, and how they might land some subsequent job in EU politics, banking or big business, but they have no idea about manufacturing or business. Their involvement with business and industry is abstract and there are too many fat faces whispering in their ears for them to make balanced decisions.

[Welshbeef]

The govt need to do some calculations

1. How much investment do they need to provide
2. For how long do they guesstimate
3. If it folded how much welfare would they have to pay out
4. How much impact to other businesses
5. What is he tax loss from all those being in work and the profitable companies selling stuff to those workers
6. What industry could come in to absorb those job losses?

The sums might be much closer than you'd think and this is the major employer in the area what 80% of total workforce of not more so a devastating hit for the economy. Other upside is if they do nationalise it in some way suddenly you have banked new and ongoing Tory votes in that area - else those votes are lost for generations.

So a geographic economic argument plus a political angle.


On R4 this morning the leader of a union was on and frankly he was go smacked that the Torys would help out in that way a stunning welcome bit of news if it transpires. Now if a hardened unionist so staunch labour supporter could have such feelings imagine the families who this could save from financial strife you think they are not going to forget who stepped in to help out and keep them enployed? It would be hard not to - labour did nothing in 13 years

[Oceanic]

Welshbeef said:

The govt need to do some calculations

1. How much investment do they need to provide
2. For how long do they guesstimate
3. If it folded how much welfare would they have to pay out
4. How much impact to other businesses
5. What is he tax loss from all those being in work and the profitable companies selling stuff to those workers
6. What industry could come in to absorb those job losses?

The sums might be much closer than you'd think and this is the major employer in the area what 80% of total workforce of not more so a devastating hit for the economy. Other upside is if they do nationalise it in some way suddenly you have banked new and ongoing Tory votes in that area - else those votes are lost for generations.

So a geographic economic argument plus a political angle.



On R4 this morning the leader of a union was on and frankly he was go smacked that the Torys would help out in that way a stunning welcome bit of news if it transpires. Now if a hardened unionist so staunch labour supporter could have such feelings imagine the families who this could save from financial strife you think they are not going to forget who stepped in to help out and keep them enployed? It would be hard not to - labour did nothing in 13 years

Could there be a lot of steel required for Crossrail and the HS2 / 3 ? perhaps the business could be secured with these projects somehow or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

[Esseesse]

zygalski said:

KrissKross said:

hornetrider said:

What can be done about cheap Chinese steel?

You don't import it or you tax the hell out of it, simple.

However what's not so simple is that the EU have allowed this to happen, our government is both powerless and spineless.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/in...

Or not so simple since we also export to China.
The supposed EU issue is a total red herring here. Unless that is you think our current trade agreement wouldn't have happened between China & the UK if we were out of the EU.
Honestly, while you're at it why not blame Blair, Brown & benefit mums for Tata moving on.

We cannot balance our trade while in the EU. Doing so used to be considered rather important. It still is IMO.

Edited by Esseesse on Wednesday 30th March 07:52

[jmorgan]

Oceanic said:

Welshbeef said:

The govt need to do some calculations

1. How much investment do they need to provide
2. For how long do they guesstimate
3. If it folded how much welfare would they have to pay out
4. How much impact to other businesses
5. What is he tax loss from all those being in work and the profitable companies selling stuff to those workers
6. What industry could come in to absorb those job losses?

The sums might be much closer than you'd think and this is the major employer in the area what 80% of total workforce of not more so a devastating hit for the economy. Other upside is if they do nationalise it in some way suddenly you have banked new and ongoing Tory votes in that area - else those votes are lost for generations.

So a geographic economic argument plus a political angle.



On R4 this morning the leader of a union was on and frankly he was go smacked that the Torys would help out in that way a stunning welcome bit of news if it transpires. Now if a hardened unionist so staunch labour supporter could have such feelings imagine the families who this could save from financial strife you think they are not going to forget who stepped in to help out and keep them enployed? It would be hard not to - labour did nothing in 13 years

Could there be a lot of steel required for Crossrail and the HS2 / 3 ? perhaps the business could be secured with these projects somehow or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

We are already a dedicated red vote in this neck of the woods, Kinnock was parachuted in to a safe seat.

However, there could be a large out vote as it is not just the 4000 odd workers at the plant that will in the mire. That goes for the other plants.

And I do not hold up much hope of CMD doing anything useful when he was bending over for the chinese delegation and trying to push various big projects their way. Guess what steel they would be using?

Hopefully that lagoon has died a death. I expect other project would be buying steel at the going rates.....

[Digga]

Oceanic said:

Could there be a lot of steel required for Crossrail and the HS2 / 3 ? perhaps the business could be secured with these projects somehow or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

The ex-Corus Tata plant in Shorpe is a long-products specialist. That is the plant that could really benefit from rail production.

Government needs to hurry up and decide whether they're serious about a Northern Powerhouse before we end up with a Northern sthouse by default.

[zygalski]

Esseesse said:

zygalski said:

KrissKross said:

hornetrider said:

What can be done about cheap Chinese steel?

You don't import it or you tax the hell out of it, simple.

However what's not so simple is that the EU have allowed this to happen, our government is both powerless and spineless.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/in...

Or not so simple since we also export to China.
The supposed EU issue is a total red herring here. Unless that is you think our current trade agreement wouldn't have happened between China & the UK if we were out of the EU.
Honestly, while you're at it why not blame Blair, Brown & benefit mums for Tata moving on.

We cannot balance our trade while in the EU. Doing so used to be considered rather important. It still is IMO.

Edited by Esseesse on Wednesday 30th March 07:52

We no longer make stuff. We are essentially a service economy. Combine that with emerging nations & the post-war economic dominance of China, Japan & Germany & that graph is hardly surprising. Again, leaving the EU isn't the panacea you seem to think it is. You may as well start a petition here trying to persuade PHers to not buy Audi, BMW, Porsche etc & instead by from British owned & built manufacturers. Oh, wait....

[madbadger]

Digga said:

Oceanic said:

Could there be a lot of steel required for Crossrail and the HS2 / 3 ? perhaps the business could be secured with these projects somehow or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

The ex-Corus Tata plant in Shorpe is a long-products specialist. That is the plant that could really benefit from rail production.

Government needs to hurry up and decide whether they're serious about a Northern Powerhouse before we end up with a Northern sthouse by default.

Port Talbot produce flat strip.

[FredClogs]

Port Talbot is loosing £1million a day and it's recently had a massive round of investment to the tune of several hundred million.

If Tata can't make it work then why would anyone else be able to make it work?

If Tata has UK customers in the automotive industry reliant on Port Talbot steel, i.e Nissan, Honda, JLR or BMW Mini why don't they club together and buy out the steel works?

Let's face it the situation is irretrievable, Port Talbot is gone, South Wales is fked - time to change focus onto the stuff the Chinese can't do.

[Digga]

madbadger said:

Digga said:

Oceanic said:

Could there be a lot of steel required for Crossrail and the HS2 / 3 ? perhaps the business could be secured with these projects somehow or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

The ex-Corus Tata plant in Shorpe is a long-products specialist. That is the plant that could really benefit from rail production.

Government needs to hurry up and decide whether they're serious about a Northern Powerhouse before we end up with a Northern sthouse by default.

Port Talbot produce flat strip.

Flat strip (I think) is a slightly different, specialist product.

Shorpe certainly was rail and also construction - rolled, beveled sections for cutting edges. They were fking useless though, and example of their ineptitude being their exhibiting at an international trade show and not even bothering to follow up on conversations and contacts made there. You could never, ever find out who to talk to even though the products you wanted to get at were 'theoretically' there. This throughout the whole Corus and Tata tenure. I daresay, had we been tenacious (perhaps employed a private detective even) we might have got somewhere, but we didn't, so kept using imported stuff.

[Welshbeef]

FredClogs said:

Port Talbot is loosing £1million a day and it's recently had a massive round of investment to the tune of several hundred million.

If Tata can't make it work then why would anyone else be able to make it work?

If Tata has UK customers in the automotive industry reliant on Port Talbot steel, i.e Nissan, Honda, JLR or BMW Mini why don't they club together and buy out the steel works?

Let's face it the situation is irretrievable, Port Talbot is gone, South Wales is fked - time to change focus onto the stuff the Chinese can't do.

Thing is China themselves are facing the exact same issue so are ramping up production so if the rate is low they are flogging loads of volume to mitigate as much as they can.


As a hardened Tory and proper Tory not this pink Tory govt we have supporter I am in favour of helping out this plant. We have the need and skill set to self deliver otherwise these thousands of people will have no jobs leading to yet another area in the mire for good potentially / or just tourism to rely on.

We make cars here, we are wanting to build HS2, we are building new Navy ships, we will be building trident replacement, we are electrifying the rail network.
If these plants just do one thing then let's invest so they can do more / diversify to meet the market needs.
We want to reduce the balance of trade.

I am Welsh but sadly don't live there - why? There are no jobs for the skill set I have nor the rate which I can get elsewhere.
So maybe there is some vested interest in my view however as a country the UK we need all areas being diverse and working well, when some areas are doing well and others less so we help them out. I'd say we quickly need to revisit the N England Steel works too based on the same logic. Else were helping no one and basically destroying areas possibly for our lifetimes. As great as tourism and outdoor activities we cannot have everywhere apart from SE doing this as when the recession comes to heSE which it will one day we will need the support and strength of the other parts of the U.K. To pull us through.

Personally in these situations i as a voter would be happy if it meant the deficit lasted a year longer ie invest harder for the long term growth at a slight short term Cashflow hit.

[scunnylad]

Digga said:

The ex-Corus Tata plant in Shorpe is a long-products specialist. That is the plant that could really benefit from rail production.

Government needs to hurry up and decide whether they're serious about a Northern Powerhouse before we end up with a Northern sthouse by default.

Just to be clear the Shorpe site is still part of TATA,the sale has not gone thru at this time

[madbadger]

Digga said:

madbadger said:

Digga said:

Oceanic said:

Could there be a lot of steel required for Crossrail and the HS2 / 3 ? perhaps the business could be secured with these projects somehow or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

The ex-Corus Tata plant in Shorpe is a long-products specialist. That is the plant that could really benefit from rail production.

Government needs to hurry up and decide whether they're serious about a Northern Powerhouse before we end up with a Northern sthouse by default.

Port Talbot produce flat strip.

Flat strip (I think) is a slightly different, specialist product.

Yes - I was agreeing with you / adding to your post.

Simplistically Port Talbot produce strip - coils of flat steel, or sheets if someone takes the coils and chops them up. High value products used for things like car bodies, building cladding and wheel barrows. None of which are a lot of use in big construction projects or rail infrastructure.

Shorpe produce long products. Beams and rails mainly, so they would be the big winners if the govt announced a big project as Oceanic was suggesting, and crucially, also bought domestic steel for it.

[Welshbeef]

madbadger said:

Yes - I was agreeing with you / adding to your post.

Simplistically Port Talbot produce strip - coils of flat steel, or sheets if someone takes the coils and chops them up. High value products used for things like car bodies, building cladding and wheel barrows. None of which are a lot of use in big construction projects or rail infrastructure.

Shorpe produce long products. Beams and rails mainly, so they would be the big winners if the govt announced a big project as Oceanic was suggesting, and crucially, also bought domestic steel for it.

So port talbot could supply all the steel for the car makers in the UK?

Isn't there a smart way that those car makers get a govt grant for using this steel & I'm pretty sure UK public might choose all else being equal more of those cars so a win win decision.

[wolves_wanderer]

Welshbeef said:

Thing is China themselves are facing the exact same issue so are ramping up production so if the rate is low they are flogging loads of volume to mitigate as much as they can.


As a hardened Tory and proper Tory not this pink Tory govt we have supporter I am in favour of helping out this plant. We have the need and skill set to self deliver otherwise these thousands of people will have no jobs leading to yet another area in the mire for good potentially / or just tourism to rely on.

We make cars here, we are wanting to build HS2, we are building new Navy ships, we will be building trident replacement, we are electrifying the rail network.
If these plants just do one thing then let's invest so they can do more / diversify to meet the market needs.
We want to reduce the balance of trade.

I am Welsh but sadly don't live there - why? There are no jobs for the skill set I have nor the rate which I can get elsewhere.
So maybe there is some vested interest in my view however as a country the UK we need all areas being diverse and working well, when some areas are doing well and others less so we help them out. I'd say we quickly need to revisit the N England Steel works too based on the same logic. Else were helping no one and basically destroying areas possibly for our lifetimes. As great as tourism and outdoor activities we cannot have everywhere apart from SE doing this as when the recession comes to heSE which it will one day we will need the support and strength of the other parts of the U.K. To pull us through.

Personally in these situations i as a voter would be happy if it meant the deficit lasted a year longer ie invest harder for the long term growth at a slight short term Cashflow hit.

Agreed. Quite apart from the problem of laying waste to an area of the country already devastated from loss of its industry there is the point that steel is too important a commodity (in my opinion) to have to rely on imports alone.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Digga said:

madbadger said:

Digga said:

Oceanic said:

Could there be a lot of steel required for Crossrail and the HS2 / 3 ? perhaps the business could be secured with these projects somehow or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

The ex-Corus Tata plant in Shorpe is a long-products specialist. That is the plant that could really benefit from rail production.

Government needs to hurry up and decide whether they're serious about a Northern Powerhouse before we end up with a Northern sthouse by default.

Port Talbot produce flat strip.

Flat strip (I think) is a slightly different, specialist product.

Shorpe certainly was rail and also construction - rolled, beveled sections for cutting edges. They were fking useless though, and example of their ineptitude being their exhibiting at an international trade show and not even bothering to follow up on conversations and contacts made there. You could never, ever find out who to talk to even though the products you wanted to get at were 'theoretically' there. This throughout the whole Corus and Tata tenure. I daresay, had we been tenacious (perhaps employed a private detective even) we might have got somewhere, but we didn't, so kept using imported stuff.

Scunny had plate. Last time I was there the mill was a bit of a mess (especially the cold plate leveller, they weren't treating that machine particularly well, nor were they using it properly). I was told that they had to hit a certain tonnage to break even, but slipping even slightly meant big losses. They just weren't turning out good stuff fast enough.

[Digga]

Welshbeef said:

Isn't there a smart way that those car makers get a govt grant for using this steel & I'm pretty sure UK public might choose all else being equal more of those cars so a win win decision.

AFAIK, not whilst we are in the EU, as their 'rules' (which not all nations follow to the letter of course) don't allow such preferential use of govt grants.

[Welshbeef]

Digga said:

Welshbeef said:

Isn't there a smart way that those car makers get a govt grant for using this steel & I'm pretty sure UK public might choose all else being equal more of those cars so a win win decision.

AFAIK, not whilst we are in the EU, as their 'rules' (which not all nations follow to the letter of course) don't allow such preferential use of govt grants.

But what is the fine for doing this? It might be insignificant as such we look after our own first and foremost. Only in doing this can we then enable the country to give 0.75% GDP to charity

[FredClogs]

wolves_wanderer said:

Agreed. Quite apart from the problem of laying waste to an area of the country already devastated from loss of its industry there is the point that steel is too important a commodity (in my opinion) to have to rely on imports alone.

So we have a foreign owned industry that's too big to fail and tax payers who are constantly asked to bail out poorly managed, even corrupt, businesses... We've done it for the banks, so why not?

I'm a pinko lefty, I'm all for the state ownership of large sections of important industry but where a business is inherently flawed or the market is fundamentally skewed in a competitors favour I can't see that the situation is retrievable, and apparently neither can the board of Tata and they know a thing or two about making and selling steel.