Another US Campus mass shooting.
Discussion
anonymous said:
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You can't call other people delusional whilst advocating changing the constitution! Less than a third of Americans own guns but well over half think upholding the right to bear arms is more important than gun control. WTF! The practicalities of disarming 100 million people of their 300 million guns don't even bear thinking about. Fishtigua said:
I'm sure it's also been pointed out already that the 2nd amendment was based on English common law, the 1689 Bill of rights. Influenced largely by the greatest of English thinkers, John Locke. So it's all our fault. Europe was in a proper "Game of Thrones" era at that time though, so they can be forgiven.
anonymous said:
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I'll give you that. How about 'utterly futile'?anonymous said:
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Having lived in the US for a number of years IMO a significant increase in gun killings would lead to a hardening of opinion that law abiding citizens have a right to defend themselves and an increase in gun ownership. creampuff said:
You are under the impression my 8yo niece takes her 22 to the mall all by herself while all the redneck drug addled adults at home are busy shooting up smack?
Or you did actually read the bit about the single shot 22 being kept in a safe and only taken out by her father, who is a naval submariner, and used by my niece in a controlled environment under supervision, after which it goes back in the safe?
Predictable 'he's responsible, not like other hickvillians who are causing the problems'. Anyone who is allowing 8 year old to have access to a weapon, under any circumstances, shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Unfortunately some people are so thick that it takes a tragedy that personally affects them to change their views. For some, even that is not enough. Or you did actually read the bit about the single shot 22 being kept in a safe and only taken out by her father, who is a naval submariner, and used by my niece in a controlled environment under supervision, after which it goes back in the safe?
Perfectly normal.
fblm said:
Having lived in the US for a number of years IMO a significant increase in gun killings would lead to a hardening of opinion that law abiding citizens have a right to defend themselves and an increase in gun ownership.
This is true, the threat of more gun control also increases gun sales.jjlynn27 said:
Perfectly normal.
Well it is normal - there are 150 millions safe gun users in the US and safe gun use is.... safe. Age 8 is about the minimum age that you have the mental judgement to safely operate a gun, which is still very different to the judgement and minimum age to use a gun without supervision - you cannot give a 8yo the same gun they practice on and let them indecently shoot at stuff. Last time I was at a shooting range in Los Angeles, there is a girl who looked about 9 there with her dad, who was teaching her to shoot a 22. It happens, its normal, I know people who started shooting at 8, they are now adults and they are still normal.I see the pic you posted of the kid with the rifle, she has her finger outside of the trigger guard. Most adults don't even do that unless they have been trained; must untrained adults handle the gun, finger on the trigger, asking for an accident to happen if they trip or fall over.
Matt Harper said:
OpulentBob said:
You're right, you didn't say that. Apologies for misquoting.
The part about your wife carrying a gun made me think, though - why does she carry it?
Assuming it's for a mugging, or personal robbery or whatever it's called there. How would it go down?
If she didn't have a gun: Someone pulls a gun on her, demands her money, phone, etc. She hands it over, loses a couple of hundred dollars and they run off, and you have a bit of hassle cancelling everything and getting it reissued.
If she has a gun: Someone pulls a gun on her, demands her money, phone, etc. She reaches in her bag to hand the wallet/purse over, grabs her gun pulls it out, and then IF she's quick enough to get it cocked, unsafetied, and then aimed, she might get a shot off - but either way SOMEONE is going to go down, most likely the person fumbling around. It would be quicker to keep a cocked gun on her belt, in her waistband, surely, and then get all Texas Pete, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that is a ridiculously hazardous way to carry a gun, and only then if you can outdraw whoever has got one pointing at you.
I assume you're not allowed to do a Tony Martin over there and shoot someone in the back after they've mugged you and are running off with your stuff, as you are no longer in fear for your life?
Are you allowed to pull a gun on someone if you merely suspect they are going to mug or rob you? Are you allowed to flash your gun in the street to let people know not to mess with you?
All serious questions.
No apology necessary, I'm not taking any of this personally. I'd like to caveat that both my wife and I have benefitted from quite extensive training over the years, provided by the specialists of Orange County Sheriffs Office. A by-product of having a daughter in the mob.The part about your wife carrying a gun made me think, though - why does she carry it?
Assuming it's for a mugging, or personal robbery or whatever it's called there. How would it go down?
If she didn't have a gun: Someone pulls a gun on her, demands her money, phone, etc. She hands it over, loses a couple of hundred dollars and they run off, and you have a bit of hassle cancelling everything and getting it reissued.
If she has a gun: Someone pulls a gun on her, demands her money, phone, etc. She reaches in her bag to hand the wallet/purse over, grabs her gun pulls it out, and then IF she's quick enough to get it cocked, unsafetied, and then aimed, she might get a shot off - but either way SOMEONE is going to go down, most likely the person fumbling around. It would be quicker to keep a cocked gun on her belt, in her waistband, surely, and then get all Texas Pete, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that is a ridiculously hazardous way to carry a gun, and only then if you can outdraw whoever has got one pointing at you.
I assume you're not allowed to do a Tony Martin over there and shoot someone in the back after they've mugged you and are running off with your stuff, as you are no longer in fear for your life?
Are you allowed to pull a gun on someone if you merely suspect they are going to mug or rob you? Are you allowed to flash your gun in the street to let people know not to mess with you?
All serious questions.
In answer to your questions....
My wife carries a Kahr CW9, which was my daughters original back-up weapon to her service side-arm. (OCSO patrol solo, not in pairs, so almost all deputies have at least 2 handguns on their person at work). My wife works as a nurse manager and part of her work involves home visits. That is the core reason.
She also drives a fairly distinctive and desirable (to some) car, which might present a car-jacking threat to her. The car-jacking trend here is not to just swipe the car, but to have the owner drive around from place to place emptying bank accounts and such. She'd rather avoid that.
How it would go down is that if someone accosted her as she was getting into or out of her car I think she'd run - if she was in the car, she'd shoot an assailant who was also in the car with the intention of killing them (to be brutally honest).
Re your subsequent point, allow me to answer that a different way. Back in 2009 my brother and 3 friends parked their car in a lot in Ybor City, Tampa and were going out for sushi. They were approached in the parking lot by a group of around 10 teens/young adults, the 'leader' of which (turned out to be a 15 year old kid) held them up at gunpoint and demanded their cash, valuables and cell phones - and the keys to the car of course. None of my brothers group were armed and all handed over their possessions. However, this kid thought that one of the victims was more reluctant to part with her valuables than the others, so shot her. He didn't kill her, but gravely injured her. It is not safe to assume that muggers/thieves/rapists are otherwise honorable and sensitive to the sanctity of life. A lot of them are worse than feral animals - but I do expect to be accused of scaremongering, by some who may read this.
She doesn't carry that weapon in her handbag. She uses a MIC device which shields the trigger/guard and is attached by a lanyard to her belt. Unholstering it causes the MIC to break away, to expose the trigger. She carries it loaded, racked with a round in the chamber. This weapon has no active safety, other than a grip safety.
A quick point about concealed carry weapon readiness. I never used to carry my gun ready to fire, because I was worried about shooting my balls off. In discussion with my trainers, they persuaded me otherwise. Their philosophy is that if the weapon is not ready to fire, it becomes a liability to the carrier. I was advised that if I wasn't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber and the weapon in battery and ready to fire, I shouldn't carry it at all. That makes sense to me - and to my wife too.
Carrying a gun this way is by no means ridiculously hazardous, if you use the right equipment and are trained on how to use it.
You are not allowed to fire on anyone who is not presenting an immediate threat to you, where you might reasonably be in fear of serious injury or death - there's a lot of quite subjective scope there - the truth is - the second you open fire, there are going to be some potentially life changing implications one way or another.
Brandishing a weapon is a felony that has serious ramifications in concealed carry states. Our training has ingrained in us, that the only time we would ever draw the weapon is if we fully intend to use it.
creampuff said:
jjlynn27 said:
Perfectly normal.
Well it is normal - there are 150 millions safe gun users in the US and safe gun use is.... safe. Age 8 is about the minimum age that you have the mental judgement to safely operate a gun, which is still very different to the judgement and minimum age to use a gun without supervision - you cannot give a 8yo the same gun they practice on and let them indecently shoot at stuff. Last time I was at a shooting range in Los Angeles, there is a girl who looked about 9 there with her dad, who was teaching her to shoot a 22. It happens, its normal, I know people who started shooting at 8, they are now adults and they are still normal.I see the pic you posted of the kid with the rifle, she has her finger outside of the trigger guard. Most adults don't even do that unless they have been trained; must untrained adults handle the gun, finger on the trigger, asking for an accident to happen if they trip or fall over.
creampuff said:
I see the pic you posted of the kid with the rifle, she has her finger outside of the trigger guard. Most adults don't even do that unless they have been trained; must untrained adults handle the gun, finger on the trigger, asking for an accident to happen if they trip or fall over.
I'm English, live in the UK and have never seen a real pistol apart from holstered and hanging from a police officer's belt, plus I have been to the US a number of times.Even I know that you keep your finger off the trigger unless you are certain that you are going to shoot something. Bit worrying that you say many people do not bother with even this precaution.
Anyhow I personally think that the States are too far down the road to ever having the type of gun control that we have in the UK and Europe. What puzzles me is, is why are there so many violent crimes when the perps know that the civilians might be armed and that the prison sentences and prisons are so harsh?
It must be a character thing.
I know that if I lived in the States, I'd probably own a few guns because I'd be allowed to.
OpulentBob said:
V interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I can't say it changes my mind but it's certainly given me an appreciation of "the other side" of the debate. Especially the part about your wife doing home nursing visits. I can see some logic in that, but at the same time I'm glad it's not something we have to face here (or if we do, it's very very rare).
No problem - and let me just say that it is quite refreshing to have a sensible, calm and rational debate on the subject even when views are opposed, without resorting to name-calling and insults.I grew up in the UK and only left in my early 40's. I never, ever had any interest in or desire to own a firearm in Britain. Here, my motivation is from more than a single source, but I have always been aware of the sheer number of firearms in public ownership where I live. I am not a gun-nut - in fact I'm concerned about gun-nuts being a threat to me and those i care about.
creampuff said:
Breadvan72 said:
Er, no , that didn't happen. He went on a drink up and died of illness some time later, either pissed or poisoned (probably just pissed). Sorry to disrupt your monotheory of everything.
You are thinking of his dad, who although he was from Macedon did not have very floppy hair and who did not conquer the Persian Empire.
Is your knowledge of early US history as poor as your knowledge of Hellenistic history?
Things are a bit hazy due to all the meth I've been smoking, Breadvan. I'm always getting confused between Alexander and his dad, Cleopatra and her husbands and indeed between Elizabeth Taylor and her many varied husbands. I preferred to study the Assyrians - hard but fair. There are some good reliefs of the Assyrians hacking people to bits in the British Museum. You are thinking of his dad, who although he was from Macedon did not have very floppy hair and who did not conquer the Persian Empire.
Is your knowledge of early US history as poor as your knowledge of Hellenistic history?
creampuff said:
Well it is normal - there are 150 millions safe gun users in the US and safe gun use is.... safe. Age 8 is about the minimum age that you have the mental judgement to safely operate a gun, which is still very different to the judgement and minimum age to use a gun without supervision - you cannot give a 8yo the same gun they practice on and let them indecently shoot at stuff. Last time I was at a shooting range in Los Angeles, there is a girl who looked about 9 there with her dad, who was teaching her to shoot a 22.
So it's not just your niece that has mental for a dad, there are others too? Well, that's all good then. creampuff said:
It happens, its normal, I know people who started shooting at 8, they are now adults and they are still normal.
Based on your posts, I really don't think that you are in a position to judge who's normal. The problem with hillbilies is that they can't comprehend that they are indeed hillbilies. I've heard of people who let their kids drink alchohol and smoke at 8. That doesn't make them normal either. creampuff said:
I see the pic you posted of the kid with the rifle, she has her finger outside of the trigger guard. Most adults don't even do that unless they have been trained; must untrained adults handle the gun, finger on the trigger, asking for an accident to happen if they trip or fall over.
Do you understand word accident? She can trip, as kids do, she can playfully turn around, again, as kids do, kid can drop gun, as kids drop things. I doubt that anyone can say anything for you realise how stupid giving a gun to 8 year old is. I can only hope that she's not a victim of someone, equally trained, discharging lead into her. After all she probably didn't ask for a mental as a parent. jjlynn27 said:
Hillbilly nutcases
Wow even Time magazine likes the idea of teaching kids to shoot! http://time.com/3211885/guns-children-firing-range...creampuff said:
Wow even Time magazine likes the idea of teaching kids to shoot! http://time.com/3211885/guns-children-firing-range...
You mean the Time magazine which voted Stalin person of the year twice? And Hitler & George W Bush once? That one?creampuff said:
jjlynn27 said:
Hillbilly nutcases
Wow even Time magazine likes the idea of teaching kids to shoot! http://time.com/3211885/guns-children-firing-range...About the author;
Dan Baum is the author, most recently, of Gun Guys: A Road Trip.
Hillbilly indeed.
TankRizzo said:
You mean the Time magazine which voted Stalin person of the year twice? And Hitler & George W Bush once? That one?
Yes and the article also mentions the 9yo who shot her instructor in the head with an Uzi. I thought I'd give you anti-gun nuts something to work with as I think we've been over the existing arguments. creampuff said:
Lucas CAV said:
What has his profession got to do with anything either?
It requires considerable self-discipline and external psychological verification to be a submariner in any navy. Such work is unlikely to be undertaken by the reckless dumbarse rednecks which gun owners seem to be portrayed as in this thread. 
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