Cut old people's benefits, they'll die soon anyway
Discussion
JagLover said:
SPS said:
You mean the generation who fought in the Second WW
It is the generation that came after that have been the "chosen" generation.Bought in the 70s or 80s and house building has been constrained since to ensure rampant house price inflation.
They will usually get final salary pension schemes and for the generations to come only those working for the public sector will be so lucky.
I could not afford to buy a bloody house until I was 40 - so you obviously forgot the 90's! Oh and of course it was us who decided on the Thatcher policies re selling of council properties and the horrendous 3/4 day working weeks with power cuts no waste collections for weeks - walking miles to work because we could not afford the bloody bus fare to get to work and if we could we could would not have enough money to buy any food that day. Yeah we were the chosen ones alright. You may be surprised to know that we had no choice sometimes as you had to opt into company pensions (and this move was encouraged by central government to lower the burden on the tax payer later on) and pay substantial amounts into them. But it's obviously our fault that we did so for many, many years so that we would not end up in poverty at the end of our "useful" working lives.
So "guilty" as charged.
SPS said:
Chosen for what exactly - years of back breaking work in heavy industry for many thousands, until that was screwed up by the unions and government.
I could not afford to buy a bloody house until I was 40 - so you obviously forgot the 90's! Oh and of course it was us who decided on the Thatcher policies re selling of council properties and the horrendous 3/4 day working weeks with power cuts no waste collections for weeks - walking miles to work because we could not afford the bloody bus fare to get to work and if we could we could would not have enough money to buy any food that day. Yeah we were the chosen ones alright. You may be surprised to know that we had no choice sometimes as you had to opt into company pensions (and this move was encouraged by central government to lower the burden on the tax payer later on) and pay substantial amounts into them. But it's obviously our fault that we did so for many, many years so that we would not end up in poverty at the end of our "useful" working lives.
So "guilty" as charged.
Don't deny that the 'substantial amounts' paid in are a mere fraction of the benefits that you will get out!!I could not afford to buy a bloody house until I was 40 - so you obviously forgot the 90's! Oh and of course it was us who decided on the Thatcher policies re selling of council properties and the horrendous 3/4 day working weeks with power cuts no waste collections for weeks - walking miles to work because we could not afford the bloody bus fare to get to work and if we could we could would not have enough money to buy any food that day. Yeah we were the chosen ones alright. You may be surprised to know that we had no choice sometimes as you had to opt into company pensions (and this move was encouraged by central government to lower the burden on the tax payer later on) and pay substantial amounts into them. But it's obviously our fault that we did so for many, many years so that we would not end up in poverty at the end of our "useful" working lives.
So "guilty" as charged.
SPS said:
Sonic said:
SPS said:
Without us and thousands of pensioners like us many young families would not be able to afford their rent or mortgages...
EFA 
If the current workers are unable to make enough cash to support themselves, why should they also be forced to pay for people who are retiring? (A luxury they will likely not have)
Munter said:
SPS said:
Sonic said:
SPS said:
Without us and thousands of pensioners like us many young families would not be able to afford their rent or mortgages...
EFA If the current workers are unable to make enough cash to support themselves, why should they also be forced to pay for people who are retiring? (A luxury they will likely not have)
Munter said:
SPS said:
Sonic said:
SPS said:
Without us and thousands of pensioners like us many young families would not be able to afford their rent or mortgages...
EFA If the current workers are unable to make enough cash to support themselves, why should they also be forced to pay for people who are retiring? (A luxury they will likely not have)
You need to read before posting!
I still work part time and surprisingly continue to pay my taxes!
My State Pension is nearly half of the minimum wage. So if I and many thousands like me who did not also look to ourselves for retirement it would cost you even more!
So I will take a cut in my SP is you will take a cut in your income.
crankedup said:
Would seem even more odd than it is already, to cut state pensions whilst giving billions of pounds in foreign aid.
Yeah. Why invest in improving our nations future, when we can give the cash to people who promised themselves a future they decided not to pay for. Sound plan that. Zero flaws.julian64 said:
Funny thing about those pensioners.
Those with any savings have been supporting younger families for the last ten years in this country based on the political interference with artificially low interest rates.
Secondly even allowing for the fact that some of them will die by the next election, there will still be a greater proportion of that age group than there has been for the last election.
Methinks someone needs to explain some simple math to said idea.
Unless they have been paying my mortgage directly I beg to differ, I pay my own way like many others, nobody supports me at all.Those with any savings have been supporting younger families for the last ten years in this country based on the political interference with artificially low interest rates.
Secondly even allowing for the fact that some of them will die by the next election, there will still be a greater proportion of that age group than there has been for the last election.
Methinks someone needs to explain some simple math to said idea.
Also, it that is the case, what were the saveds of the day doing when rates were sky high, oppressing younger mortgage payers?
Edited by Axionknight on Monday 5th October 14:23
SPS said:
Chosen for what exactly - years of back breaking work in heavy industry for many thousands, until that was screwed up by the unions and government.
I could not afford to buy a bloody house until I was 40 - so you obviously forgot the 90's! Oh and of course it was us who decided on the Thatcher policies re selling of council properties and the horrendous 3/4 day working weeks with power cuts no waste collections for weeks - walking miles to work because we could not afford the bloody bus fare to get to work and if we could we could would not have enough money to buy any food that day. Yeah we were the chosen ones alright. You may be surprised to know that we had no choice sometimes as you had to opt into company pensions (and this move was encouraged by central government to lower the burden on the tax payer later on) and pay substantial amount into them. But it's obviously our fault that we did so for many, many years so that we would not end up in poverty at the end of our "useful" working lives.
So "guilty" as charged.
But that just appears to be a Monty Python yowl of annoyance at the progress of time and how things were harder when yon were a lad? The 3 day week was back in 70-74. Thatcher's right to buy came in 80. Company pension changes (move from Defined Benefit to Defined Contribution) is something that spans the last 20 odd years.I could not afford to buy a bloody house until I was 40 - so you obviously forgot the 90's! Oh and of course it was us who decided on the Thatcher policies re selling of council properties and the horrendous 3/4 day working weeks with power cuts no waste collections for weeks - walking miles to work because we could not afford the bloody bus fare to get to work and if we could we could would not have enough money to buy any food that day. Yeah we were the chosen ones alright. You may be surprised to know that we had no choice sometimes as you had to opt into company pensions (and this move was encouraged by central government to lower the burden on the tax payer later on) and pay substantial amount into them. But it's obviously our fault that we did so for many, many years so that we would not end up in poverty at the end of our "useful" working lives.
So "guilty" as charged.
I full accept that there are any number of older poorer people, who, partly down to circumstance, and also poor decision making, find themselves in a poor position: a case in point is my Mother in Law, who is shortly to hit 60, has no pension having never worked for one employeer long enough to sort out final pension arrangements, no house, having had a fairly transient life, and subsequently has a bleak old age facing her.
However there are many millions of more affluent boomers who have managed to benefit from the following;
1) Access to a well supplied housing market back in the 70s. They may have accessed the right to buy in the 80s for added kerching. That access is pretty much constrained in the last 7 years post crash as capital requirements for house purchases has edged over 20% of home value; putting a deposit in the region of £40K. 110% mortgages are a thing of the past.
2) Likewise, has benefited from a creep of all sorts of entitlements in the last 40 years (winter fuel, TV license, pension credits, travel concessions, free prescriptions etc). The youth of today will in all likelihood see those entitlements constrained (License fee for example).
3) Access to Defined Benefit Pension schemes, which are now largely wound up due to affordability. Everything is now Defined contribution, and that requires a much larger sink of salary, with much lower returns. Neverminding the detonation of the Private Pension marketplace post Equitable Life.
4) Piggy backed on the longest housing & stock Market bubbles in recent histories.
For those, and there are very many, life has been pretty damn good. It's not universal, however it still is a norm, and certainly if I was under 20 years of age I would feel a bit chippy about it.
Ridgemont said:
However there are many millions of more affluent boomers who have managed to benefit from the following;
1) Access to a well supplied housing market back in the 70s. They may have accessed the right to buy in the 80s for added kerching. That access is pretty much constrained in the last 7 years post crash as capital requirements for house purchases has edged over 20% of home value; putting a deposit in the region of £40K. 110% mortgages are a thing of the past.
2) Likewise, has benefited from a creep of all sorts of entitlements in the last 40 years (winter fuel, TV license, pension credits, travel concessions, free prescriptions etc). The youth of today will in all likelihood see those entitlements constrained (License fee for example).
3) Access to Defined Benefit Pension schemes, which are now largely wound up due to affordability. Everything is now Defined contribution, and that requires a much larger sink of salary, with much lower returns. Neverminding the detonation of the Private Pension marketplace post Equitable Life.
4) Piggy backed on the longest housing & stock Market bubbles in recent histories.
For those, and there are very many, life has been pretty damn good. It's not universal, however it still is a norm, and certainly if I was under 20 years of age I would feel a bit chippy about it.
This1) Access to a well supplied housing market back in the 70s. They may have accessed the right to buy in the 80s for added kerching. That access is pretty much constrained in the last 7 years post crash as capital requirements for house purchases has edged over 20% of home value; putting a deposit in the region of £40K. 110% mortgages are a thing of the past.
2) Likewise, has benefited from a creep of all sorts of entitlements in the last 40 years (winter fuel, TV license, pension credits, travel concessions, free prescriptions etc). The youth of today will in all likelihood see those entitlements constrained (License fee for example).
3) Access to Defined Benefit Pension schemes, which are now largely wound up due to affordability. Everything is now Defined contribution, and that requires a much larger sink of salary, with much lower returns. Neverminding the detonation of the Private Pension marketplace post Equitable Life.
4) Piggy backed on the longest housing & stock Market bubbles in recent histories.
For those, and there are very many, life has been pretty damn good. It's not universal, however it still is a norm, and certainly if I was under 20 years of age I would feel a bit chippy about it.
Plus, for some, university tuition fees now versus grants, and no fees back then.
This will be the first time since the industrial revolution when the following generations will be poorer than the generation before and the way the baby boomers have fixed the system in their favour is a big part of that.
JagLover said:
Ridgemont said:
However there are many millions of more affluent boomers who have managed to benefit from the following;
1) Access to a well supplied housing market back in the 70s. They may have accessed the right to buy in the 80s for added kerching. That access is pretty much constrained in the last 7 years post crash as capital requirements for house purchases has edged over 20% of home value; putting a deposit in the region of £40K. 110% mortgages are a thing of the past.
2) Likewise, has benefited from a creep of all sorts of entitlements in the last 40 years (winter fuel, TV license, pension credits, travel concessions, free prescriptions etc). The youth of today will in all likelihood see those entitlements constrained (License fee for example).
3) Access to Defined Benefit Pension schemes, which are now largely wound up due to affordability. Everything is now Defined contribution, and that requires a much larger sink of salary, with much lower returns. Neverminding the detonation of the Private Pension marketplace post Equitable Life.
4) Piggy backed on the longest housing & stock Market bubbles in recent histories.
For those, and there are very many, life has been pretty damn good. It's not universal, however it still is a norm, and certainly if I was under 20 years of age I would feel a bit chippy about it.
This1) Access to a well supplied housing market back in the 70s. They may have accessed the right to buy in the 80s for added kerching. That access is pretty much constrained in the last 7 years post crash as capital requirements for house purchases has edged over 20% of home value; putting a deposit in the region of £40K. 110% mortgages are a thing of the past.
2) Likewise, has benefited from a creep of all sorts of entitlements in the last 40 years (winter fuel, TV license, pension credits, travel concessions, free prescriptions etc). The youth of today will in all likelihood see those entitlements constrained (License fee for example).
3) Access to Defined Benefit Pension schemes, which are now largely wound up due to affordability. Everything is now Defined contribution, and that requires a much larger sink of salary, with much lower returns. Neverminding the detonation of the Private Pension marketplace post Equitable Life.
4) Piggy backed on the longest housing & stock Market bubbles in recent histories.
For those, and there are very many, life has been pretty damn good. It's not universal, however it still is a norm, and certainly if I was under 20 years of age I would feel a bit chippy about it.
Plus, for some, university tuition fees now versus grants, and no fees back then.
This will be the first time since the industrial revolution when the following generations will be poorer than the generation before and the way the baby boomers have fixed the system in their favour is a big part of that.
(hypothetical)in addition to the belongings and goods already given of the past twenty years. You may do as you wish with the property splitting the proceeds 50/50, the proceeds should keep you in clover for the rest of your natural life, but please think about your children and how you may bequeath them later in life.
Axionknight said:
Unless they have been paying my mortgage directly I beg to differ, I pay my own way like many others, nobody supports me at all.
Also, it that is the case, what were the saveds of the day doing when rates were sky high, oppressing younger mortgage payers?
Whether you agree with it or not makes little odds. Low interest rates have benefitted those paying mortgages greatly over the last ten years at the expensive of anyone who had savings invested for a return. The decision to keep interest rates low is a political one.Also, it that is the case, what were the saveds of the day doing when rates were sky high, oppressing younger mortgage payers?
Edited by Axionknight on Monday 5th October 14:23
crankedup said:
By the same token, many of the Baby Boomers (me included) will be looking to make funeral arrangements soon, if not already done so. To my son and daughter I bequeath all of my worldly goods and belongings
(hypothetical)in addition to the belongings and goods already given of the past twenty years. You may do as you wish with the property splitting the proceeds 50/50, the proceeds should keep you in clover for the rest of your natural life, but please think about your children and how you may bequeath them later in life.
That's cool... a good friend has watched his boomer parents, who inherited a very large sum from his grandmother (who squirreled away everything of value over 60 odd years), go on a year long bender, which has involved plastic surgery (25K on a face lift), holidays around the world (40K), new car (30K) etc.(hypothetical)in addition to the belongings and goods already given of the past twenty years. You may do as you wish with the property splitting the proceeds 50/50, the proceeds should keep you in clover for the rest of your natural life, but please think about your children and how you may bequeath them later in life.
He pointed out, in a very wry way, that if they subsequently found themselves on broke st and looking at significant future bills to live in semi decent care accommodation, he does not expect to be hearing from them..
crankedup said:
By the same token, many of the Baby Boomers (me included) will be looking to make funeral arrangements soon.
Probably not for you as you have family but I gather if you give your body to science there are no funeral costs as there's no body to be dealt with. That's what I'm going to do and leave the cost of a funeral for a piss up.My parents now retired both drive but do use the free bus pass - why bus stop is a stones throw from the front door and parking at the other end is expensive and still a walk.
Anyway they don't use it that often but it's always outside of commuting time and the odd thing is in the main it's only other pensioners who are on it.
In some ways in the narrow situation they and the other old folk are keeping bus services running - giving work to bus drivers, freeing up car park spaces for families and doing it while most are at work.
To me the free bus pass is a great idea
1. green
2. Congestion beating/fewer road users
3. Increases the usage on marginal services
4. Enables some individuals who don't have much chance to get out- sadly spend most days sat in their homes. This gets them out and meeting others.
Winter fuel allowance to me should be rolled into the state pension. We already have the tax thresholds so the high earners would pay more tax via income tax.
Anyway they don't use it that often but it's always outside of commuting time and the odd thing is in the main it's only other pensioners who are on it.
In some ways in the narrow situation they and the other old folk are keeping bus services running - giving work to bus drivers, freeing up car park spaces for families and doing it while most are at work.
To me the free bus pass is a great idea
1. green
2. Congestion beating/fewer road users
3. Increases the usage on marginal services
4. Enables some individuals who don't have much chance to get out- sadly spend most days sat in their homes. This gets them out and meeting others.
Winter fuel allowance to me should be rolled into the state pension. We already have the tax thresholds so the high earners would pay more tax via income tax.
Ridgemont said:
Company pension changes (move from Defined Benefit to Defined Contribution) is something that spans the last 20 odd years.
While the demise of the final salary scheme has happened over the last 20 years lets not for get to give credit to theThe Great Gordon Brown
Who in his first budget in 1997 removed UK dividend tax reclaims which increase UK tax on pensions by he claimed £4.5bn.
I know its the Wail but the facts are correct.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2613609/Re...
Now theirs a man who really knew how to screw pensioners.
Mrr T said:
While the demise of the final salary scheme has happened over the last 20 years lets not for get to give credit to the
The Great Gordon Brown
Who in his first budget in 1997 removed UK dividend tax reclaims which increase UK tax on pensions by he claimed £4.5bn.
I know its the Wail but the facts are correct.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2613609/Re...
Now theirs a man who really knew how to screw pensioners.
Very very true. The Great Gordon Brown
Who in his first budget in 1997 removed UK dividend tax reclaims which increase UK tax on pensions by he claimed £4.5bn.
I know its the Wail but the facts are correct.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2613609/Re...
Now theirs a man who really knew how to screw pensioners.
Problem is those who are not retired and are in receipt of welfare totally ignore this fact.
Have a rule to incentivise saving for the future so that you are less of a burden on the state - this is a great policy.
Then move the goal posts, cause confusion about pensions people somehow thinking (and id say this is a fairly common view) no point in paying into pension it will be worth nothing in the future.
You could argue Gordon Brown and the pension pot raids forced people to look elsewhere for investment--- buy to let. People generally like assets they can touch especially after the dot com bubble the banks bust etc.
You have to wonder if a decrease in NHS spending on over weight people will result in more early deaths thus totally mitigating the ticking time bomb.
Well - really bored with the predictable and small minded hypocrites who espouse the "you never had it so good" mantra when they don't actually know what it was like.
Can't wait till you get to 80 and get you meager State Pension and see how you react. Some idiot will be saying - "you never had it so good". But then I expect you will say it was not us - it was the older generations like your mother and father.
Can't wait till you get to 80 and get you meager State Pension and see how you react. Some idiot will be saying - "you never had it so good". But then I expect you will say it was not us - it was the older generations like your mother and father.
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