Business rates - all change

[Sheets Tabuer]

This is madness, when councils could set their own council tax rate they wanted to add 20-30% per year so had to be capped, now labour councils will want evil business to pay for every tom dick or harry.

Perhaps that's the plan.

[AJS-]

I guess the rationale for this is tax competition, which is a good thing. Councils can lower rates to attract businesses to move there and greedy councils are restrained by the threat of businesses moving to other areas. Good idea. In practice it won't be a quick process as moving an established business is expensive and takes time. It will take a few years to filter through, and we'll probably see the grabbing rises first.

[juice]

We moved our IT from Bermuda to Bristol last year (I came over to setup and run the office here) and we ended up in an office in Bristol's Enterprise Zone which crucially means we get up to 55K a year (for 5 years) Business Rates relief.

Do you know if the upcoming changes will affect this relief at all ?

[powerstroke]

speedyguy said:

powerstroke said:

Im not so sure ! our local lot cheshire east are a real shower ,seem unable to come up with a workable local plan for building development for instance, so for me i would like to see them loosing responsibility
for things not given more to screw up!!!

You do know an awful lot of the yokels are against any type of development ? (I'm not one of them)

Yes agree , personaly I think planning should be the business of central government not a load of 3rd rate pen pushers who are ridden over roughshod by the big devlopers while bullying and making iduvidulals small applications overiy complicated!! and refusiing seemingly sensible applications
not to mention all the who you know and favors business that goes on !

[powerstroke]

TankRizzo said:

You are of course assuming that local authorities aren't stuffed full of dribbling, bickering old incompetents who are only there because they can't get another job.

yes 100%

[Digga]

powerstroke said:

TankRizzo said:

You are of course assuming that local authorities aren't stuffed full of dribbling, bickering old incompetents who are only there because they can't get another job.

yes 100%

This is the trouble. Crankedup's point that councils need to ensure rates are sensible and sustainable is correct, but missed the unfortunate fact that a lot are incompetent or ignorant and also that the effects of overtaxing can take a while to wash through the system, often long after the officials have buggered off to enjoy their index-linked dotage.

I have no horse in the retail premises race, but find it disgusting how so many small towns have taxed their high streets into dreadful, homogenised, charity-and-chain wastelands. IMHO, the death of small independent shops is solely down to two issues; rates and parking.

[anonymous-user]

powerstroke said:

Yes agree , personaly I think planning should be the business of central government not a load of 3rd rate pen pushers who are ridden over roughshod by the big devlopers while bullying and making iduvidulals small applications overiy complicated!! and refusiing seemingly sensible applications
not to mention all the who you know and favors business that goes on !

The Gov has a policy of devolving decision making to local level as 'they' supposedly know local needs and requirements and the Gov can roll out the old line 'not us guv' which should work but falls down due to the Nimby factor frequently.
I am aware of a large multimillion £ (not Cheshire) on the edge of a councils area and the council next door are 'trying' to object as they supposedly get none of the economic benefits and only the negative of traffic.

The Gov should stick to NSIP's, strategic stuff and appeals and butt out of local decisions.

[paulrockliffe]

fblm said:

Wow. Thanks. The tax on businesses are shocking.

Yes, but don't forget that it's ultimately a tax on the consumer. A tax on top of all the other taxes you've paid once you've got to the point of making the purchase.

[Digga]

paulrockliffe said:

fblm said:

Wow. Thanks. The tax on businesses are shocking.

Yes, but don't forget that it's ultimately a tax on the consumer. A tax on top of all the other taxes you've paid once you've got to the point of making the purchase.

Or it's a tax on jobs; businesses either don't have the budget to recruit or, often cannot or dare not invest in the space with which to employ more workers.

Even worse, the LAs now get rates on empty buildings (ten ye4ars or so back this was not the case) which has hugely diminished the free stock of business and retail premises ready for new or expanding ventures to utilise.

[edh]

As RanchoGrande pointed out earlier, any cut in business rates are likely to be be swallowed by increased rent over time, so any cut could just be a transfer of money to land owners.

There seems to be very little "freedom" for LA's in this, and it's another way of forcing through elected mayors.

I understand this was a 2015 Labour manifesto policy. They are starting to explore land value tax now, which would be a much better solution for business and domestic property tax.

[RanchoGrande]

edh said:

As RanchoGrande pointed out earlier, any cut in business rates are likely to be be swallowed by increased rent over time, so any cut could just be a transfer of money to land owners.

There seems to be very little "freedom" for LA's in this, and it's another way of forcing through elected mayors.

I understand this was a 2015 Labour manifesto policy. They are starting to explore land value tax now, which would be a much better solution for business and domestic property tax.

The rents in our areas would definitely go up if there was a decrease in BR's - the policies our PLC LL's adopt are crazy, they'd rather have vacant shops than decrease the rents so they 'can maintain the local rent levels' The churn rate in one of the areas we have a store is really high as retail stores keep opening then 6-12 months after opening realise they can't turn a profit whislt paying circa £160k (rent and rates) for a 500sq ft store. Bonkers really - they only businesses that seem to be able to make these spaces work now are premium fast food outlets such as Pret and Itsu.

Our lease is up next year and sadly it's likely we'll have to close after 5 years of successful trading as the rents have doubled and we won't be able to make it work. Very frustrating, but when your LL is PLC they don't have any interest in keeping diversity in the area and are often badly advised by agents who are trying to push up rents to justify their fees.

[RanchoGrande]

...oh and on top of business rates, we pay local "Business improvement Levies" which fund Town Rangers and other random town activities (surely the BR's themselves should pay for this?) and in central london we are hit with a cross rail supplement on top of the business rates (seems that most central London businesses are chipping in for this colossal project)

[crankedup]

prand said:

Fingers crossed that this makes running a town center commercial venture more viable (local council will have the ability to reduce what people have been saying are punitively high costs), end result being encouraging smaller indies back and filling empty shops with more useful things than charity shops.

Agreed, if Council's want thriving town centres, and small local handy village shops that provide a service to more rural areas, they know what to do. I just hope they see sense.

[crankedup]

AJS- said:

I guess the rationale for this is tax competition, which is a good thing. Councils can lower rates to attract businesses to move there and greedy councils are restrained by the threat of businesses moving to other areas. Good idea. In practice it won't be a quick process as moving an established business is expensive and takes time. It will take a few years to filter through, and we'll probably see the grabbing rises first.

nutshell. Locals will soon raise a racket when they see their local shops up sticks for more favourable areas. Good variety of shops attract shoppers, as we all know.

[crankedup]

Digga said:

powerstroke said:

TankRizzo said:

You are of course assuming that local authorities aren't stuffed full of dribbling, bickering old incompetents who are only there because they can't get another job.

yes 100%

This is the trouble. Crankedup's point that councils need to ensure rates are sensible and sustainable is correct, but missed the unfortunate fact that a lot are incompetent or ignorant and also that the effects of overtaxing can take a while to wash through the system, often long after the officials have buggered off to enjoy their index-linked dotage.

I have no horse in the retail premises race, but find it disgusting how so many small towns have taxed their high streets into dreadful, homogenised, charity-and-chain wastelands. IMHO, the death of small independent shops is solely down to two issues; rates and parking.

Agreed.
Council's will / must team up with pro' business teams, I think many do already. The business development leaders will / should champion the needs of the local business community and influence Council decision making. I agree with much of what others are saying, these matters can no longer be left to a few shiny suits sat in plush council offices. These changes have been a long time coming, better late then never.

[Vixpy1]

fesuvious said:

Are charities exempt from rates? I watch closely the occupancy of retail outlets.

Yes, I'm such an exciting guy!

Anyway, post recession the increase in the numbers of formally vacant retail outlets now occupied by charities is marked.

So, just wondered if they get relief?

IIRC Yes they do

[surveyor]

Vixpy1 said:

fesuvious said:

Are charities exempt from rates? I watch closely the occupancy of retail outlets.

Yes, I'm such an exciting guy!

Anyway, post recession the increase in the numbers of formally vacant retail outlets now occupied by charities is marked.

So, just wondered if they get relief?

IIRC Yes they do

80% mandatory relief funded by central government
20% discretionary that is funded by the local council and I suspect rather rare

LL will often do short term lets to charity to avoid rates on empty shops. I rather suspect some might actually pay reverse rent to the charity.

Edited by surveyor on Tuesday 6th October 13:26

[anonymous-user]

paulrockliffe said:

fblm said:

Wow. Thanks. The tax on businesses are shocking.

Yes, but don't forget that it's ultimately a tax on the consumer. A tax on top of all the other taxes you've paid once you've got to the point of making the purchase.

Obviously. Business taxes are a great stealth tax; half the population demand that they pay more, or "their fair share" without stopping to wonder (I suspect don't have the ability to figure out) who actually pays those taxes. We're surrounded by fvcking monkeys.

[edh]

fblm said:

paulrockliffe said:

fblm said:

Wow. Thanks. The tax on businesses are shocking.

Yes, but don't forget that it's ultimately a tax on the consumer. A tax on top of all the other taxes you've paid once you've got to the point of making the purchase.

Obviously. Business taxes are a great stealth tax; half the population demand that they pay more, or "their fair share" without stopping to wonder (I suspect don't have the ability to figure out) who actually pays those taxes. We're surrounded by fvcking monkeys.

So all business rents are paid by the consumer as well... cut rates & the rents go up.

[anonymous-user]

edh said:

fblm said:

paulrockliffe said:

fblm said:

Wow. Thanks. The tax on businesses are shocking.

Yes, but don't forget that it's ultimately a tax on the consumer. A tax on top of all the other taxes you've paid once you've got to the point of making the purchase.

Obviously. Business taxes are a great stealth tax; half the population demand that they pay more, or "their fair share" without stopping to wonder (I suspect don't have the ability to figure out) who actually pays those taxes. We're surrounded by fvcking monkeys.

So all business rents are paid by the consumer as well... cut rates & the rents go up.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the post I wrote some moments ago.