Islamic Reformation

[TwigtheWonderkid]

FredClogs said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

FredClogs said:

And Male genital mutilation is common place across a lot more cultures, religions and territories.

There's no such thing as MGM. Circumcision, which I assume you're referring to, is a modification, and you're entitled to be against it, but certainly not mutilation. To say it is and to liken it to FGM belittles the physical and mental trauma that is often the result of FGM.

I suppose you're aware people who practice FGM don't call it mutilation either,

Actually many of them do. Many people who practice FGM accept full well that it's mutilation, but think that it's necessary regardless.

[daddy cool]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Kids don't get a say in a lot of things that are done to them by their parents, but that doesn't make it mutilation.

What else do parents do, that is as horrific and irreversible as chopping part of their son's cock off? Choosing their school? Yeah, that's comparable.

Jesus, no wonder its so rife across the world, if other people think like you.

[jonnM]

daddy cool said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Kids don't get a say in a lot of things that are done to them by their parents, but that doesn't make it mutilation.

What else do parents do, that is as horrific and irreversible as chopping part of their son's cock off? Choosing their school? Yeah, that's comparable.

Jesus, no wonder its so rife across the world, if other people think like you.

+1
Who in their right mind would think that the best thing you can do to a newborn baby is to hack off a part of their genitals? How can we still be subjecting children to this in the 21st century?

[jakesmith]

daddy cool said:

I call it mutilation if you don't have a say in the matter.

Unless of course babies somehow communicate the message "im ok with this". Maybe they do this at the same time as they say "I believe in god(s), and coincidentally, I believe in the same one(s) as my parents do."

I guess the difference is that you'd struggle to find anyone circumcised who is bothered by it or affected by it in any way, where as victims of FGM can suffer excruciating physical and mental pain for their whole lives, and are suppressed by it. If you want to compare a ritual that has health benefits and no lasting effects at all, that no one minds having done to them, with a mutilation designed to suppress women in general, then you are as bigoted as those whom you take issue with.

[jonnM]

jakesmith said:

I guess the difference is that you'd struggle to find anyone circumcised who is bothered by it or affected by it in any way, where as victims of FGM can suffer excruciating physical and mental pain for their whole lives, and are suppressed by it. If you want to compare a ritual that has health benefits and no lasting effects at all, that no one minds having done to them, with a mutilation designed to suppress women in general, then you are as bigoted as those whom you take issue with.

So you have no problem with cutting bits of baby boys without their consent?

[AlexC1981]

Just about every race and tribe on Earth must have had a go at exterminating Jewish people at some point and they always bounce back stronger than ever. When science can offer people an afterlife or eternal life, that is when you will see a serious decline in religion.

jakesmith said:

I guess the difference is that you'd struggle to find anyone circumcised who is bothered by it or affected by it in any way, where as victims of FGM can suffer excruciating physical and mental pain for their whole lives, and are suppressed by it. If you want to compare a ritual that has health benefits and no lasting effects at all, that no one minds having done to them, with a mutilation designed to suppress women in general, then you are as bigoted as those whom you take issue with.

I don't think anyone is saying circumcision is anywhere near as bad as FGM, but unless there are medical reasons it should really be down to the individual to decide. I expect very few adults decide to have themselves circumcised for religious regions, so it doesn't seem fair the decision should be taken away from them.

[Some Gump]

AJS- said:

Looking at a number of other threads on here it seems quite obvious that there's huge concern about Islam. Not just from skinheads and those who don't like anyone different, but from moderate people who don't want to live along side ever growing numbers of ever more radical Muslims. And it's not really hard to see why with the ongoing terror campaigns and wars at just about every border between the Islamic world and anyone else.

In my utopia, we wouldn't need to live alongside any religion - every single one of them only seems to cause trouble. It's not like the extreme muslims have a monopoly on being complete aholes - just look at the extreme bible bashers in America.

IMO, the solution to extremism isn't tolerance, it's education. You never see a well rounded, well educated religeous nutter on the telly.

[AJL308]

FredClogs said:

but the numbers in all countries seem to be only going one way... Fewer and fewer people are relying on faith.

And long may it continue.

[anonymous-user]

I'm not convinced by the reformation argument, I think it actually needs a return to its routs, the OP said that many people read the Koran in Arabic, that is not strictly right, most get the Koran read to them in Arabic or read it and pronounce the words but don't 'understand ' the language. My wife learnt Arabic purely so she could read the Koran and understand it, she is always getting angry with quotes on the BBC and CCN from terrorists that are incorrect. The bible was the same before the King James version ordinary people where told what it said from the Latin.
Islam in its original form is actually the only religion that recognizes the other two, Jews have to be born in, Christ said 'the only way to the father is through me', while Islam calls for recognition of people of the book.
European governments need to control the sermons given on a Friday as is the practice in most Muslim countries.
Just for the record I think their all rubbish, and agree we need to do something and fast.
There are a load of good logical arguments against Islam but governments will not allow an intellectual debate.

[Digga]

Some Gump said:

In my utopia, we wouldn't need to live alongside any religion - every single one of them only seems to cause trouble. It's not like the extreme muslims have a monopoly on being complete aholes - just look at the extreme bible bashers in America.

IMO, the solution to extremism isn't tolerance, it's education. You never see a well rounded, well educated religeous nutter on the telly.

Absolutely. It'd be a far better place if, instead of relying on old (and outmoded if well-meant) stories to guide us, we could begin to use principles and science.

For me, the greatest revelation is the scientific discovery, via DNA analysis, of how few original human mothers we can all trace our roots back to. Granted, we are certainly not all exactly the same, but we are all human and related; one set of people migrated (so most of us are descended of migrants too; ironic) one way out of Africa, other sets went in different routes and in the process we developed different habits, customs, lifestyles and even skin colours. But essentially we are all the same, if we look further back, beyond all the stuff that divides people.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

AlexC1981 said:

I don't think anyone is saying circumcision is anywhere near as bad as FGM, but unless there are medical reasons it should really be down to the individual to decide. I expect very few adults decide to have themselves circumcised for religious regions, so it doesn't seem fair the decision should be taken away from them.

That's a perfectly reasonable position to take. But some people on here are comparing the 2, saying they are both mutilation, when they are not. That's what I object to. When you compare the two, you do an enormous disservice to the victims of FGM, who have actually been mutilated.

[skyrover]

FredClogs said:

Oh yeah, a reformation, never did Europe any harm did it? I mean it's not as if the reformation in Europe was a major excuse for nearly 400 years of near continual war is it, of which we still suffer the echoes and theological extremism today - is it?

Lol(lard)

Could be worse...

You could live in the middle east