Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[0000]

So... it's going to be imposed.

Are we going to see the 90% of junior doctors leave now that said they would if that happened?

[rovermorris999]

Nope.

[London424]

0000 said:

So... it's going to be imposed.

Are we going to see the 90% of junior doctors leave now that said they would if that happened?

I've never understood why the government faffs around for so long, dragging these things out.

When my company stopped the DB plan we got the minimum legal consultation period, then new contracts issued and if you didn't want to sign you got another job.

All done and dusted with the typically amount of moaning you'd expect but then everyone carries on as usual.

[BlackLabel]

Not surprised to see Hunt call the doctors' bluff.

What alternative do Junior Docs have other than working for the NHS? The private medical sector in this country is very small and moreover it would not accommodate medics until they've completed their foundation and then specialist training.

[ewenm]

BlackLabel said:

Not surprised to see Hunt call the doctors' bluff.

What alternative do Junior Docs have other than working for the NHS? The private medical sector in this country is very small and moreover it would not accommodate medics until they've completed their foundation and then specialist training.

Emigrate. Friends of mine have done and are doing this right now.

[Countdown]

London424 said:

I've never understood why the government faffs around for so long, dragging these things out.

When my company stopped the DB plan we got the minimum legal consultation period, then new contracts issued and if you didn't want to sign you got another job.

All done and dusted with the typically amount of moaning you'd expect but then everyone carries on as usual.

Possibly because if your company went on strike/went bust the general public wouldn't care, whereas a lot more people rely on Doctors.

[SpeedMattersNot]

It was only a handful of years ago there was some changes to the training process for young teachers. They wouldn't fund those with anything below a 2:1 in maths (to become a maths teacher) and significantly reduced (and in some cases stopped) funding for their PGCE.

Fast forward a couple of years, after putting off a new generation of maths teachers and discouraging the existing ones, I know of some who left to go to the middle east, one quitting being a teacher altogether. Surprise surprise, they are now desperate for maths teachers, partly due to the curriculum changes, but they should have had this in mind. They now offer up to a £21,000 bursary AND cover the training for maths teachers with a 1st and now accept those with a 3rd...

I wonder if this will be the case in the future for young doctors and that in 5 or so years they'll be surprised to find they need to make it more attractive for a weaker cohort of students.

[London424]

Countdown said:

London424 said:

I've never understood why the government faffs around for so long, dragging these things out.

When my company stopped the DB plan we got the minimum legal consultation period, then new contracts issued and if you didn't want to sign you got another job.

All done and dusted with the typically amount of moaning you'd expect but then everyone carries on as usual.

Possibly because if your company went on strike/went bust the general public wouldn't care, whereas a lot more people rely on Doctors.

They've gone on strike, the world has kept turning.

By delaying the implementation they just offer more strike opportunities. Once any change is in place you don't see many, if any, people striking.

[Countdown]

London424 said:

They've gone on strike, the world has kept turning.

By delaying the implementation they just offer more strike opportunities. Once any change is in place you don't see many, if any, people striking.

They've gone on strike and thousands of appointments have been cancelled, and thousands of pounds wasted. If a contract which the doctors consider to be unfavourable is imposed then it will have an impact on recruitment and (probably more immediately) retention. All of this will result in more cost and poorer service.

[alfie2244]

I've heard that it's senior consultants that really rule the roost.......are they in Mr Hunt's sights next?

[spaximus]

0000 said:

So... it's going to be imposed.

Are we going to see the 90% of junior doctors leave now that said they would if that happened?

In the short term no, what you will see is a lot of Doctors moving to Wales and Scotland in the first instance. Then as people start to take stock of how they are affected, then you will see more, especially the young ones move away.

This will create long term issues as Doctors coming up to retirement will leave and there will be no more to replace them. the shortages they have at the moment will leave them unable to cope.

And you know now the next target will be every single health workers contracts, nurses, midwives etc.

As some have said if Corbyn was not such an incompetent tt, Hunt has just handed the keys to number 10 over.

The other thing to bear in mind is a contract is a two way thing. So all the promised reductions in hours they will have to work, when they refuse to work anything outside those hours, guess what will happen? The hospitals will have to call an agency hand over a huge wad to employ the very same Doctors.

This is a very sad day for England, not Scotland and Wales as they have both said they will not change the contracts, but for the English in my opinion a terrible day.

[jjlynn27]

0000 said:

So... it's going to be imposed.

Are we going to see the 90% of junior doctors leave now that said they would if that happened?

Do you have a link for the statement that 90% said that they would leave?

Thanks.

[BlackLabel]

ewenm said:

Emigrate. Friends of mine have done and are doing this right now.

Friends of mine have gone off to Australia and NZ for a short period (because they didn't get a training position over here) but the majority do return. Most doctors I know reluctantly accept that the pay and working conditions for the first 5 or so years after graduating is going to be pretty dire however they carry on in the knowledge that things improve significantly once they have completed their specialty training.

I don't think the new contract will force a mass exodus of doctors to pastures new - it's an empty threat. Time will tell if that assertion is true or not.

Nevertheless, it's sad that it has come down to this - doctors seem to hate Jeremy Hunt more than the police hate Theresa May and that is some achievement.

[rovermorris999]

spaximus said:

The other thing to bear in mind is a contract is a two way thing. So all the promised reductions in hours they will have to work, when they refuse to work anything outside those hours, guess what will happen? The hospitals will have to call an agency hand over a huge wad to employ the very same Doctors.

So it is all about money.

[turbobloke]

London424 said:

When my company stopped the DB plan we got the minimum legal consultation period, then new contracts issued and if you didn't want to sign you got another job.

Yes indeed it looks as though the junior doctors are going to experience a taste of life in the private sector. On this morning's latest radio news bulletin it sounded very much like the gov't lead negotiator being interviewed, that CEO of the high-performing Trust, saying that the negotiations had concluded without agreement and he had conveyed that information to the Secretary of State and advised him to take such steps as necessary to introduce the new contract.

ewenm said:

Emigrate. Friends of mine have done and are doing this right now.

Fair enough to those medics who are getting jobs abroad and emigrating, given presumably that no alternative employment exists in this country. For those who remain, with those no-other-jobs to apply for, apparently they're willing to gamble their mortgage, Porsche/BMW payments and lifestyle.

With both sides unwilling to reach a compromise agreement there's another gamble involving patients now in play, something to take into account in looking further down the line.

Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 11th February 13:33

[George111]

spaximus said:

This is a very sad day for England, not Scotland and Wales as they have both said they will not change the contracts, but for the English in my opinion a terrible day.

I agree.

Can a Trust offer additional terms to a Doctor's contract ? For example, pay +20% for weekend overtime if they choose to ?

Also, how do Trusts escape the working time directive ?

[turbobloke]

BlackLabel said:

Nevertheless, it's sad that it has come down to this - doctors seem to hate Jeremy Hunt more than the police hate Theresa May and that is some achievement.

Quite an achievement. All eyes on the next reshuffle.

[glazbagun]

If I were to don my tinfoil hat, I'd be tempted to think this was part of a wider strategy to increasingly privatise the NHS- either sign the new contract and the conservatives win, or leave and reduce the quality of the NHS leaving it ripe for "saving" by the private sector.

Hunt seems to specialize in being the fall-guy/flack jacket for unpopular policies, so I find it hard to believe he really cares about the NHS or any other area he turns his hand to. Taking heat and vitriol instead of Cameron is his job.

[spaximus]

rovermorris999 said:

spaximus said:

The other thing to bear in mind is a contract is a two way thing. So all the promised reductions in hours they will have to work, when they refuse to work anything outside those hours, guess what will happen? The hospitals will have to call an agency hand over a huge wad to employ the very same Doctors.

So it is all about money.

No it is not. No one in their right minds would want to take a 30% pay cut and they will. What is also in the mix is that hospitals will now try to get more hours work out of the same people. My daughter is in A&E at present on 12 hour night shifts this week, by the time she has done I dread to think what her hours will total. Certainly it will be well outside the EU working time directive, which is already a joke in hospitals.
Sometimes when I see her she is exhausted, so much so I wish she had gone into another career but yet the pleasure she gets when she and the others pull people back from the edge of death and sometimes beyond, keeps her going.

If your are of the mindset that it is just a money issue you are misinformed. Every single issue was negotiated away, and the final one was the hours which counts as unsocial.

But as I said the loser will be the English NHS not the Doctors as they have a choice, which patients in the NHS will not

[Mr_B]

spaximus said:

No it is not. No one in their right minds would want to take a 30% pay cut and they will. What is also in the mix is that hospitals will now try to get more hours work out of the same people. My daughter is in A&E at present on 12 hour night shifts this week, by the time she has done I dread to think what her hours will total. Certainly it will be well outside the EU working time directive, which is already a joke in hospitals.
Sometimes when I see her she is exhausted, so much so I wish she had gone into another career but yet the pleasure she gets when she and the others pull people back from the edge of death and sometimes beyond, keeps her going.

If your are of the mindset that it is just a money issue you are misinformed. Every single issue was negotiated away, and the final one was the hours which counts as unsocial.

But as I said the loser will be the English NHS not the Doctors as they have a choice, which patients in the NHS will not

I can't say I've really followed this, but the 30% pay cut you mention is going to raise an eyebrow or two. How does that figure come about ?