Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
I was astonished to find out that Saturday's (at least) is not part of the working week in the NHS. Very backward.
People are ill 24/7 , the care they receive should be seamless. The business I was in at some time was also a 24/7 scenario(breakdowns/outages do not respect day or time) .
Yet , the engineers who cover and repair such were in a any 5 days in a 7 day week nearly 20 years ago. The working day , was also any eight hours in any day from 06.00 to 22.00 hrs. Although, no split shifts.
As said, this came about near 20yrs back, the fact that any essential service operates outside a seamless 7 day working week , let alone health , is shocking to say the least.
People are ill 24/7 , the care they receive should be seamless. The business I was in at some time was also a 24/7 scenario(breakdowns/outages do not respect day or time) .
Yet , the engineers who cover and repair such were in a any 5 days in a 7 day week nearly 20 years ago. The working day , was also any eight hours in any day from 06.00 to 22.00 hrs. Although, no split shifts.
As said, this came about near 20yrs back, the fact that any essential service operates outside a seamless 7 day working week , let alone health , is shocking to say the least.
dav123a said:
You could operate a true 7 day NHS but it would need extra staff and so extra money , do you think the government would pay for it ?
Actually, in the situation I was in, the number of staff actually went down. This was owing (I was told) to more efficient use of resources.Hosenbugler said:
I was astonished to find out that Saturday's (at least) is not part of the working week in the NHS. Very backward.
People are ill 24/7 , the care they receive should be seamless. The business I was in at some time was also a 24/7 scenario(breakdowns/outages do not respect day or time) .
Yet , the engineers who cover and repair such were in a any 5 days in a 7 day week nearly 20 years ago. The working day , was also any eight hours in any day from 06.00 to 22.00 hrs. Although, no split shifts.
As said, this came about near 20yrs back, the fact that any essential service operates outside a seamless 7 day working week , let alone health , is shocking to say the least.
i could be wrong. but it is a 7 day a week service already. i think the issue is not any 5 days in the working week, but turning the working week into 6 days by including saturdays. now it has been said doctors will only have to work every second saturday ,but how long will that last ? as has already been mentioned, allocating sensible working hours seems to be beyond the ken of those managing doctors.People are ill 24/7 , the care they receive should be seamless. The business I was in at some time was also a 24/7 scenario(breakdowns/outages do not respect day or time) .
Yet , the engineers who cover and repair such were in a any 5 days in a 7 day week nearly 20 years ago. The working day , was also any eight hours in any day from 06.00 to 22.00 hrs. Although, no split shifts.
As said, this came about near 20yrs back, the fact that any essential service operates outside a seamless 7 day working week , let alone health , is shocking to say the least.
" The House has only sat on four Saturdays since 1939. .."
would love to see mp,s working a 90 hour week, and attending parliament at the weekend on a regular basis.
I simplify this situation to something along these lines
I have a business that customers expect 24hr service on
Reality from a customer perspective is they don't need to know i only do my banking etc on a Friday.
So as long as they can phone up or walk in 24hrs a day they only care about the product and service i give.
From my perspective, my employees may prefer working 9-5 Mon to Friday
And historically they may have wanted overtime etc for working outside these hours.
But if i want to make my business more efficient i dont want staff of this mindset. Id realise they came into this industry expecting to work unsociable hours. So would adopt a contract that allows me to have staff covering all the necessary time slots with the correct amount of staff at any given time.
This would logically be one similar to other industries. And as such id expect staff to work some form of shift patterns etc. Such that i kept my overall overtime bill down.
I have some fairly fixed costs such as buildings and machines etc, so may as well have these being utilised more throughout the day. Especially as my customer base is apparently getting bigger. And i cant just go build new premises very easily or quickly.
As such....
It doesn't seem daft, just simply a case of those employees wanting to protect what they have currently. And to my mind when you cut out all the BS its about money.
Doctors be it trainees or juniors etc, are trying to prevent some form of pay cut or freeze. And its being made out to be some BS about anything but money.
If it was a business in the private sector id simply tell them to do one, and eventually someone would come and apply for the job anyway.
Unions are making this an issue
I have a business that customers expect 24hr service on
Reality from a customer perspective is they don't need to know i only do my banking etc on a Friday.
So as long as they can phone up or walk in 24hrs a day they only care about the product and service i give.
From my perspective, my employees may prefer working 9-5 Mon to Friday
And historically they may have wanted overtime etc for working outside these hours.
But if i want to make my business more efficient i dont want staff of this mindset. Id realise they came into this industry expecting to work unsociable hours. So would adopt a contract that allows me to have staff covering all the necessary time slots with the correct amount of staff at any given time.
This would logically be one similar to other industries. And as such id expect staff to work some form of shift patterns etc. Such that i kept my overall overtime bill down.
I have some fairly fixed costs such as buildings and machines etc, so may as well have these being utilised more throughout the day. Especially as my customer base is apparently getting bigger. And i cant just go build new premises very easily or quickly.
As such....
It doesn't seem daft, just simply a case of those employees wanting to protect what they have currently. And to my mind when you cut out all the BS its about money.
Doctors be it trainees or juniors etc, are trying to prevent some form of pay cut or freeze. And its being made out to be some BS about anything but money.
If it was a business in the private sector id simply tell them to do one, and eventually someone would come and apply for the job anyway.
Unions are making this an issue
Edited by mikebradford on Thursday 11th February 14:53
spaximus said:
rovermorris999 said:
spaximus said:
The other thing to bear in mind is a contract is a two way thing. So all the promised reductions in hours they will have to work, when they refuse to work anything outside those hours, guess what will happen? The hospitals will have to call an agency hand over a huge wad to employ the very same Doctors.
So it is all about money.Sometimes when I see her she is exhausted, so much so I wish she had gone into another career but yet the pleasure she gets when she and the others pull people back from the edge of death and sometimes beyond, keeps her going.
If your are of the mindset that it is just a money issue you are misinformed. Every single issue was negotiated away, and the final one was the hours which counts as unsocial.
But as I said the loser will be the English NHS not the Doctors as they have a choice, which patients in the NHS will not
IMHO the NHS should be set up on a 24hr/7 day shift pattern like many other service providers but getting from where we are now to there would be a difficult journey. Ideally we should start with a clean sheet of paper and design what we need but that could never happen unfortunately.
mikebradford said:
I simplify this situation to something along these lines
I have a business that customers expect 24hr service on
Reality from a customer perspective is they don't need to know i only do my banking etc on a Friday.
So as long as they can phone up or walk in 24hrs a day they only care about the product and service i give.
From my perspective, my employees may prefer working 9-5 Mon to Friday
And historically they may have wanted overtime etc for working outside these hours.
But if i want to make my business more efficient i dont want staff of this mindset. Id realise they came into this industry expecting to work unsociable hours. So would adopt a contract that allows me to have staff covering all the necessary time slots with the correct amount of staff at any given time.
This would logically be one similar to other industries. And as such id expect staff to work some form of shift patterns etc. Such that i kept my overall overtime bill down.
I have some fairly fixed costs such as buildings and machines etc, so may as well have these being utilised more throughout the day. Especially as my customer base is apparently getting bigger. And i cant just go build new premises very easily or quickly.
As such....
It doesn't seem daft, just simply a case of those employees wanting to protect what they have currently. And to my mind when you cut out all the BS its about money.
Doctors be it trainees or juniors etc, are trying to prevent some form of pay cut or freeze. And its being made out to be some BS about anything but money.
If it was a business in the private sector id simply tell them to do one, and eventually someone would come and apply for the job anyway.
Unions are making this an issue
It's not a business though , and so doesn't really compare to your example.I have a business that customers expect 24hr service on
Reality from a customer perspective is they don't need to know i only do my banking etc on a Friday.
So as long as they can phone up or walk in 24hrs a day they only care about the product and service i give.
From my perspective, my employees may prefer working 9-5 Mon to Friday
And historically they may have wanted overtime etc for working outside these hours.
But if i want to make my business more efficient i dont want staff of this mindset. Id realise they came into this industry expecting to work unsociable hours. So would adopt a contract that allows me to have staff covering all the necessary time slots with the correct amount of staff at any given time.
This would logically be one similar to other industries. And as such id expect staff to work some form of shift patterns etc. Such that i kept my overall overtime bill down.
I have some fairly fixed costs such as buildings and machines etc, so may as well have these being utilised more throughout the day. Especially as my customer base is apparently getting bigger. And i cant just go build new premises very easily or quickly.
As such....
It doesn't seem daft, just simply a case of those employees wanting to protect what they have currently. And to my mind when you cut out all the BS its about money.
Doctors be it trainees or juniors etc, are trying to prevent some form of pay cut or freeze. And its being made out to be some BS about anything but money.
If it was a business in the private sector id simply tell them to do one, and eventually someone would come and apply for the job anyway.
Unions are making this an issue
Edited by mikebradford on Thursday 11th February 14:53
arp1 said:
This is pistonheads though, hating the public sector and unions...
Where's the hate? Recognising the need to tackle waste, fraud, error - and the need for change - in any arena that's spending public money i.e. our taxes and spending it in such an important aspect of life isn't hate. dav123a said:
It's not a business though , and so doesn't really compare to your example.
So out of interest, what does the private health care in the UK base its business plan on?As i accept they are not providing exactly the same service and in the same way
But their are comparable aspects including staff etc.
My point was not actually the business, but that you have to look at all aspects. And in simple terms the current contract doesn't reflect the market sector needs and the expectations of the end user.
turbobloke said:
Where's the hate? Recognising the need to tackle waste, fraud, error - and the need for change - in any arena that's spending public money i.e. our taxes and spending it in such an important aspect of life isn't hate.
It crops up with on most threads, at least in npe, where the pu lic secot is discussed. I'm not sure this doctors contract dispute has anything to do with waste fraud or error.mikebradford said:
dav123a said:
It's not a business though , and so doesn't really compare to your example.
So out of interest, what does the private health care in the UK base its business plan on?As i accept they are not providing exactly the same service and in the same way
But their are comparable aspects including staff etc.
My point was not actually the business, but that you have to look at all aspects. And in simple terms the current contract doesn't reflect the market sector needs and the expectations of the end user.
ewenm said:
Emigrate. Friends of mine have done and are doing this right now.
IME this has been happening for a while.My youngest Son has a condition that requires ongoing care and over his 14 years we have seen several of the English Doctors emigrate, to be replaced with Doctors from other countries, mainly Indian/Asian.
No complaints with his care but it seems odd that we train Doctors to then have them move to US/Australia/New Zealand to be replaced with Doctors trained on the Asian continent...
968 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Except it is 7 days a week for emergencies which is what the public wants, not routine appointments and ops on the weekend. But go ahead and spout uninformed nonsense. The employees already work on weekends, the employees that don't are guess who? anonymous said:
[redacted]
I know very well because in my trust we offered weekend appointments for opd appointments and surgery which was elective. DNA rates went up from around 15-20% to around 50%. We did an exercise polling patients to see what they wanted and unanimously they wanted week day appointments. The majority did so because it was easier to organise transport to and from the hospital in the week than in the weekend.As for you working 7 days, I have my doubts. I've heard this nonsense before and yet everytime I contact my solicitor on the weekend, guess what, they're closed. Indeed they close at 5, not 7pm. This has been the case with every solicitor I've ever used. Funny that.
You have no problem getting a private appointment because that doctor us working in his/her private time which they're entitled to do as they're not indentured slaves. You may well want a 7 day elective service in the NHS but to do so the government will have to spend another 20% again on the NHS. That won't happen. Unfortunately uts not possible to do so on the current level of funding.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That Dna rate is standard for weekends. All the patients were telephoned to confirm their appointments as well as receiving a letter. The trust did not get paid tariff for those wasted appointments. The trust cannot impose charges on patients because Mr Hunt would prevent that as he would lose the next election if patients are charged.The other reason why patients don't like weekend surgery is because care facilities in the community are non existent on the weekends so that'll require a few billion to fund as well. So it's not a simple issue
Transport issues are due to a) hospital transport not having as many drivers available on the weekends as they would need to be paid b) public transport generally runs a reduced service on weekends, particularly in the sticks where I work c) you're not factoring in that the VAST majority of users of the NHS are elderly, who don't work but do see their families on weekends so why would they want to waste that time to come to hospital when they can during the week?
Oh and as much as Mr *unt would like me to work literally 7 days a week, I cannot and neither can anyone else, so what will happen in order to fulfil this b
ks is I will be made to work a weekend at the expense of a Monday and Tuesday or Thursday and Friday or some other day when I would be more productively utilised. The only way around this is by massively increasing staffing and guess what, that costs money.
Oh and as much as Mr *unt would like me to work literally 7 days a week, I cannot and neither can anyone else, so what will happen in order to fulfil this b
ks is I will be made to work a weekend at the expense of a Monday and Tuesday or Thursday and Friday or some other day when I would be more productively utilised. The only way around this is by massively increasing staffing and guess what, that costs money.Edited by 968 on Thursday 11th February 16:59
Interesting to see the sentiment on the BBC news item comments.
Some (more than I expected) what look to be balanced views who are just getting fed up - I.e. daring to suggest being a doctor is just a job...
One could be daring further still and suggest general opinion (those without a direct interest either way) is on the turn.
Some (more than I expected) what look to be balanced views who are just getting fed up - I.e. daring to suggest being a doctor is just a job...
One could be daring further still and suggest general opinion (those without a direct interest either way) is on the turn.
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