Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[Rovinghawk]

968 said:

There is huge inefficiency within the NHS

Finally the admission. I don't give a damn whom you wish to blame for it, you admit that it exists. In your own words, the efficiency is "huge".

Let's deal with this, shall we? Rather than demanding more water for a bucket that leaks, let's try plugging a few holes.

[Mr_B]

spaximus said:

Mr_B said:

spaximus said:

No it is not. No one in their right minds would want to take a 30% pay cut and they will. What is also in the mix is that hospitals will now try to get more hours work out of the same people. My daughter is in A&E at present on 12 hour night shifts this week, by the time she has done I dread to think what her hours will total. Certainly it will be well outside the EU working time directive, which is already a joke in hospitals.
Sometimes when I see her she is exhausted, so much so I wish she had gone into another career but yet the pleasure she gets when she and the others pull people back from the edge of death and sometimes beyond, keeps her going.

If your are of the mindset that it is just a money issue you are misinformed. Every single issue was negotiated away, and the final one was the hours which counts as unsocial.

But as I said the loser will be the English NHS not the Doctors as they have a choice, which patients in the NHS will not

I can't say I've really followed this, but the 30% pay cut you mention is going to raise an eyebrow or two. How does that figure come about ?

It is complicated but I will try to explain. doctors get a base salary which starts as an F1 Doctor. This is the supplemented depending upon the direction and choices made. This supplement for say a Psychiatric rotation may be say 20% as the requirement for out of normal hours is very low. Sweeping statement but the majority of cases are day cases, like Endocrinology.
At the other end of the scale is A&E where they work horrendous shift patterns and a large number of night shifts. They get a 50% banding. No Doctors get overtime under normal circumstances, this is covered by the supplement and reflects the unsocial hours that have been agreed for years.
Now Hunt has reclassified what is unsocial and via very complicated smoke and mirrors and as a result the pay will drop, significantly for those in the high bandings, the ones we need in emergencies.

The claims he makes are it will make no Doctor worse off and they will work less hours is impossible. Lets be frank if it was would Doctors have gone on strike. This is why Hunt says it is just about pay, it is not. What will happen is hospital managers will push Doctors to work longer and longer as they know they won't just leave people who need them. Protection of those who are being pushed too far is being removed, hospitals were fined if they exploited Doctors, this is being taken away so what do you think will happen.

Negotiation has been on going and a solution was offered that would have worked. It was put to Hunt who is alleged to have personally vetoed it. He refused to answer that question in Parliament he has caused this and I fear where this will end.

Thanks for taking time for a full explanation.

[Mr_B]

968 said:

They don't anymore. Sadly the number of Asian doctors choosing to emigrate to the uk has dropped dramatically, to be replaced by Bulgarian and Greek doctors who don't speak English well and are far less qualified. Most also work for locum agencies so they earn more.

With regard to English and qualifications, are they not just meeting the minimum requirement, or are you suggesting they don't meet it but get to work anyway ?

[Welshbeef]

968 said:

And yet the fall guys in the NHS are the doctors and nurses who are the frontline. The government see them as an easy target rather than face up to their own inadequacy and the utter ineptitude of the managerial staff they appoint, who are the best paid members of hospital staff doing the least hours and certainly not on a weekend. The bottom line is a truly 7 day ELECTIVE NHS is only achievable if there are 7 days worth of staff and currently there are barely staff to run a 5 day service, hence the argument for this contract.

Ok so what is the £ per person in the UK that the NHS needs to run.

Then look at mortality rates plus birth rates and then add in the migration we are seeing that is then the income tax rise that is needed to tread water.

More than happy to see 20% starting point lower to maybe £4K starting point instead of going to £12k to ensure we are all in it together.

[968]

Rovinghawk said:

Finally the admission. I don't give a damn whom you wish to blame for it, you admit that it exists. In your own words, the efficiency is "huge".

Let's deal with this, shall we? Rather than demanding more water for a bucket that leaks, let's try plugging a few holes.

Interesting you ignore the rest of my post. Of course if you compare efficiency of the NHS to the rest of the world you'll find it performs relatively well. The frustration for clinicians is that they can see where the waste occurs but have no power to change it, as managers run the show and don't pay the slightest attention to clinical staff. Ironically most of the waste within the system stems from the government and their endless obsession with reorganising the structure of the NHS, we've wasted billions since 2012 on Lansleys pointless reform and nothing has changed, indeed it has worsened. But hey let's blame the junior doctors.

[drainbrain]

I owe my life to the young kid (junior doctor) who, tired or not, fought like a tiger to keep me alive in a half hour ambulance ride to a hospital theatre. How could I not sign their petition?

Now less than 3 months later I'm walking on 'stubbies' at £1000 a leg, on the way to 'real' prostheses which are £25000 a leg, supplied by arguably Europe's top manufacturer (Otto Bock).

These people are amazing but they're spread paper thin. I recall in ICU an agency nurse trying to take a blood sample. 1st try the needle went right through the vein. So did the second. And when the third try did the same with the girl shaking and near to tears I told her to give it up. 5 minutes later a 'proper' nurse got the blood out of me before I knew the needle was in my arm.

If we lose the 'real' doctors and nurses to meanness and unrealistic expectations then we'll be a lot worse off as a nation.

Apparently I'm transferring into the private system soon, where care may be a bit more focussed on the individual. But I'll remember all these NHS people for the rest of my life. Amazing, all of them.

[968]

Welshbeef said:

Ok so what is the £ per person in the UK that the NHS needs to run.

Then look at mortality rates plus birth rates and then add in the migration we are seeing that is then the income tax rise that is needed to tread water.

More than happy to see 20% starting point lower to maybe £4K starting point instead of going to £12k to ensure we are all in it together.

Good question and my answer is, I don't know, as I'm not a health economist, I'm a consultant surgeon. I'm sure there are many that have though. You might want to look up the analysis of the kings fund who have been highly critical of this governments spending policy and priorities within health.

[968]

Mr_B said:

With regard to English and qualifications, are they not just meeting the minimum requirement, or are you suggesting they don't meet it but get to work anyway ?

The latter as they are EU citizens so can work here without any equivalence exams unlike Asian doctors.

[mph1977]

968 said:

Welshbeef said:

But still if they can earn 2x salary there why come here?

They don't anymore. Sadly the number of Asian doctors choosing to emigrate to the uk has dropped dramatically, to be replaced by Bulgarian and Greek doctors who don't speak English well and are far less qualified. Most also work for locum agencies so they earn more.

Maybe you be thinking that many South Asian Doctors will be speaking good English and be willing to be doing the Needful...

[NordicCrankShaft]

You guy's don't realise how lucky you are with the NHS!

The public medical care here in Norway is shocking, from what I've seen of the state of the hospitals when visiting in-law relatives, it really is piss poor, considering Norway is one of the richest countries in the world.

I recently broke my hand,went down to the emergency room which is seperate from the main hospital the next morning (9.30am on a Saturday). Got there and got told to go home as my injury wasn't severe enough. Got home called the hospital and asked why I was sent home and was put through to the main hospital. Some grumpy bd answered the call and told me there was no way I could come to the main hospital to have my hand sorted as it was a weekend and they don't deal with "minor" injuries on a weekend, come back Monday. So called Monday morning to check it was ok to come to the hospital, was told not to bother coming to the hospital as I would not be seen and to go and see my own GP.

Called GP couldn't get in for 2 weeks. In the end I couldn't be arsed with it and ended up paying for private treatment. It was expensive but at least it means I won't have any further issues with a fked up hand.

I pay a minimum of 35% tax on my earnings, I don't claim any benefits and never have since moving here. Always worked and always paid tax yet I can't even rock up at the emergency room and get treatment for an injury.......It's disgusting and has left me feeling extremely bitter over the last few weeks.

[Welshbeef]

NordicCrankShaft said:

You guy's don't realise how lucky you are with the NHS!

The public medical care here in Norway is shocking, from what I've seen of the state of the hospitals when visiting in-law relatives, it really is piss poor, considering Norway is one of the richest countries in the world.

I recently broke my hand,went down to the emergency room which is seperate from the main hospital the next morning (9.30am on a Saturday). Got there and got told to go home as my injury wasn't severe enough. Got home called the hospital and asked why I was sent home and was put through to the main hospital. Some grumpy bd answered the call and told me there was no way I could come to the main hospital to have my hand sorted as it was a weekend and they don't deal with "minor" injuries on a weekend, come back Monday. So called Monday morning to check it was ok to come to the hospital, was told not to bother coming to the hospital as I would not be seen and to go and see my own GP.

Called GP couldn't get in for 2 weeks. In the end I couldn't be arsed with it and ended up paying for private treatment. It was expensive but at least it means I won't have any further issues with a fked up hand.

I pay a minimum of 35% tax on my earnings, I don't claim any benefits and never have since moving here. Always worked and always paid tax yet I can't even rock up at the emergency room and get treatment for an injury.......It's disgusting and has left me feeling extremely bitter over the last few weeks.

Shhh don't say that the SNP will be calling it bluff bluster and bullying

[Rovinghawk]

968 said:

Interesting you ignore the rest of my post. Of course if you compare efficiency of the NHS to the rest of the world you'll find it performs relatively well. The frustration for clinicians is that they can see where the waste occurs but have no power to change it, as managers run the show and don't pay the slightest attention to clinical staff. Ironically most of the waste within the system stems from the government and their endless obsession with reorganising the structure of the NHS, we've wasted billions since 2012 on Lansleys pointless reform and nothing has changed, indeed it has worsened. But hey let's blame the junior doctors.

1) I don't give a damn how efficient the resty of the world is/isn't- I care about the one I'm involved in.
2) I didn't blame JDs, I blamed the NHS.
3) I'm not actually interested in blaming people, I'm interested in fixing the thing rather than endlessly pouring more money into it.

FYI I don't remember a time when the NHS wasn't in crisis & desperate for more money.

[Mr_B]

968 said:

Mr_B said:

With regard to English and qualifications, are they not just meeting the minimum requirement, or are you suggesting they don't meet it but get to work anyway ?

The latter as they are EU citizens so can work here without any equivalence exams unlike Asian doctors.

So qualified in whatever EU country means able to work here without necessarily meeting a UK medical standard, but surely the English is tested to some standard ?

[Welshbeef]

968 said:

Good question and my answer is, I don't know, as I'm not a health economist, I'm a consultant surgeon. I'm sure there are many that have though. You might want to look up the analysis of the kings fund who have been highly critical of this governments spending policy and priorities within health.

One issue is in 2003 when there was a big injection of spend with the NHS the funds didn't go on additional heads it predominantly went on rate increases....


What these young doctors should be doing is demanding more doctors and. In so doing it will reduce the hours they work and remove the double time on Sat working that seems to be the sticking point.

[968]

mph1977 said:

Maybe you be thinking that many South Asian Doctors will be speaking good English and be willing to be doing the Needful...

You think you're hilarious? Actually they generally do speak far better English than their Greek or Bulgarian counterparts and having worked with them for 20 years and being the child of immigrant medical parents who worked within the NHS for 40 years, I think I have a bit more experience than you do. They also carry a massive amount of clinical experience and their training is rigorous unlike in Greece where to be a consultant you need 2 years of speciality training.

[968]

Rovinghawk said:

1) I don't give a damn how efficient the resty of the world is/isn't- I care about the one I'm involved in.
2) I didn't blame JDs, I blamed the NHS.
3) I'm not actually interested in blaming people, I'm interested in fixing the thing rather than endlessly pouring more money into it.

FYI I don't remember a time when the NHS wasn't in crisis & desperate for more money.

Lots of anger and not giving a damn. I suggest you do give a damn because it's your health secretary that is presiding over this fiasco and the parlours state the system is in. You might want to conveniently ignore other countries but you shouldn't because it'll give you context about the problems we face and how we are managing in the face of reduced funding. The money isn't 'endlessly pouring' indeed it is reducing year I year whilst demand increases which seems odd. If you want to fix things genuinely then listening to the concerns of those working within should give you a good starting point.

For another poster here the JDs have always said they would be happy to support a 7 day service if the government adequately resourced it, which they refuse to. They refuse to employ the entire hospital staff for 2 extra days and that is the only way a safe service could run.

[Rovinghawk]

968 said:

Lots of anger and not giving a damn.

Me or the NHS staff?

968 said:

I suggest you do give a damn because it's your health secretary that is presiding over this fiasco and the parlours state the system is in.

Although I accept that the man in charge carries the can, are you really telling me that the huge inefficiency you admitted exists is purely down to him?

968 said:

You might want to conveniently ignore other countries but you shouldn't

How good or bad they are is irrelevant. Don't use their failings to excuse yours.

968 said:

it'll give you context about the problems we face

Such as "huge" inefficiency?

968 said:

we are managing in the face of reduced funding. The money isn't 'endlessly pouring' indeed it is reducing year I year

I don't know how you define "reduced funding" but my understanding is that more is spent every year. I'm no financial giant but I thought that this would be called "increased funding".

968 said:

If you want to fix things genuinely then listening to the concerns of those working within should give you a good starting point.

Alternative POV- they could be parties with vested interests.

[vonuber]

I think this is all part of the Conservatives plan to basically run it enough into the ground that they can then part - or fully - privatise it, whilst subsequently handily ending up on the boards of most of the companies who are suddenly running the contracts.
The same is going to happen with Network Rail.

[968]

Rovinghawk said:

Although I accept that the man in charge carries the can, are you really telling me that the huge inefficiency you admitted exists is purely down to him?

A large amount of the problems are down to his predecessor when they insisted on a costly and pointless reorganisation rather than ensuring adequate funding.

Rovinghawk said:

How good or bad they are is irrelevant. Don't use their failings to excuse yours.

Clearly you're determined to be confrontational though are totally and wildly inaccurate with your accusations. I haven't failed one iota. I've probably saved the NHS more in my career than you can imagine and worked well beyond contract. Try and stick to the issues and be critical of those rather than personalise. It does you little credit. You might think ither systems are irrelevant but that's being blindly ignorant to the context of the cost of healthcare globally, which you seem to be unaware of.

rovinghawk said:

I don't know how you define "reduced funding" but my understanding is that more is spent every year. I'm no financial giant but I thought that this would be called "increased funding".

Your understanding is wrong. The level of funding has dropped in real terms in by a huge amount over a short period of time despite increasing demands.

Rovinghawk said:

Alternative POV- they could be parties with vested interests.

And what would those interests be? Making the system work better perhaps? Getting better results for patients? Ensuring adequate staffing levels to provide best care? I'm guessing you don't see it like that, which is a pity as it demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge of what doctors do and how they support the whole system.

[PugwasHDJ80]

968 said:

rovinghawk said:

I don't know how you define "reduced funding" but my understanding is that more is spent every year. I'm no financial giant but I thought that this would be called "increased funding".

Your understanding is wrong. The level of funding has dropped in real terms in by a huge amount over a short period of time despite increasing demands.

968 I have a huge respect for doctors and for your input to various threads on PH (ie eye surgery) and I totally agree that much of the problems could be laid at the door of excessive managerial

However your assertion on funding above is wrong, just factually incorrect.

Even the Kings fund agrees that funding in REAL terms has risen year on year, between 2010 and 2020 three will be an annual real terms increase of 1% per year, in cash terms funding will increase from 97bn to 134bn

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nuts...

In the last 60 years there has been just six years when the budget did not increase year on year.

In 1951 the nhs budget was 2.1% of GDP.

IN 2012 the nhs budget was a frankly ridiculous 8.1% of gdp

At current rates of growth by the time I die 16% of gdp will be spent on health.

It cannot keep going like this