Junior Doctor's contracts petition

Junior Doctor's contracts petition

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Discussion

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
Scuffers said:
How could you possibly quantify this?
Waiting times etc?
That's not what i was getting at.

Wales nos is moving scrap, the hard part is understanding why?

who do you want to point the finger at?

Is it just the demographics of the patients?

Is it the Welsh assembly underfunding it?

Is it central government screwing it?


IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Here's a taster of the kind of culture imposed by the ruling class in the NHS. It's a submission to the Public Accounts Committee:


http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committe...

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
ucb said:
BigMon said:
I wonder if all the right wingers on here defending Hunt to the hilt will be quite so forthcoming in the future if this appears to be the huge balls up the medical profession are forecasting it will be?

As I've said before umpteen times on this thread, there is no doubt there is colossal waste and inefficiency in the NHS. And the fact savings need to be made is blindingly obvious.

However, why on earth is Hunt going after frontline staff before exhausting all the other possibilities for savings of which there seem to be an endless amount (bloated tiers of management, huge procurement inefficiences, colossal IT waste, etc, etc)?

Unless there is some ulterior motive it just seems baffling to go after junior doctors.
I think it pays to bear in mind when discussing anything to do with Mr Hunt and the NHS that Mr Hunt has authored a policy booklet (Direct Democracy: An Agenda For A New Model Party) which calls for increased private provision of NHS services.

Noam Chumsky: That's the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don't work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital.
Yes, just like the Railways.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes, that would make sense, or maybe offer him the National Guardian Job. Oh no sorry that's gone to the Exec Director of Nursing at Barts who's going to fit it in a couple of days a week whilst doing her day job.

Raj is thinking of teaching, he hasn't got a chance in hell of another NHS job. About the same chance as Loughton being held to account. NHSTDA by the way have been sitting on an investigation report into Mr Loughton they commissioned (from Verita) in 2014. It was completed spring '15 but is yet to be released. I wonder why....

VolvoT5

4,155 posts

173 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
^ Quite depressing really. Whistle blowers in the NHS get stitched up, regardless of all the political gestures and promises that they will be protected. If a nurse or doctor makes too many waves it is all too easy for their employer to pore over every medical note and decision made and find enough dirt to have the GMC or NMC hang them out to dry.

The Daily mail claims no medical professional sacked for while blowing has been re employed.

The stories are all pretty much the same - all unofficially black listed.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Friday 12th February 18:48

IroningMan

10,154 posts

245 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
VolvoT5 said:
^ Quite depressing really. Whistle blowers in the NHS get stitched up, regardless of all the political gestures and promises that they will be protected. If a nurse or doctor makes too many waves it is all too easy for their employer to pore over every medical note and decision made and find enough dirt to have the GMC or NMC hang them out to dry.

The Daily mail claims no medical professional sacked for while blowing has been re employed.

The stories are all pretty much the same - all unofficially black listed.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Friday 12th February 18:48
Presumably that is Mr Hunt's fault, too?

Or is it that the Health Service long ago reached the point where clinical staff and patient care are a by-product of a wholly self-perpetuating bureaucracy?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
IroningMan said:
VolvoT5 said:
^ Quite depressing really. Whistle blowers in the NHS get stitched up, regardless of all the political gestures and promises that they will be protected. If a nurse or doctor makes too many waves it is all too easy for their employer to pore over every medical note and decision made and find enough dirt to have the GMC or NMC hang them out to dry.

The Daily mail claims no medical professional sacked for while blowing has been re employed.

The stories are all pretty much the same - all unofficially black listed.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Friday 12th February 18:48
Presumably that is Mr Hunt's fault, too?

Or is it that the Health Service long ago reached the point where clinical staff and patient care are a by-product of a wholly self-perpetuating bureaucracy?
Not really sure what your getting at, but if you mean the continuing persecution of those who raise patient safety issues, then yes, it has to be laid at his door. He claims to have done lots, in fact it is window dressing of the most disturbing kind. The reality is that he allows whistlers to hang in the wind as a public statement to others about what will happen if they open their mouths. Bit like gibbeting really.

Try this one for size: http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2014...

Sharmila did the right thing and got stuffed. She met with Hunt who said he'd help her, yet again she's unemployed facing homelessness. Great when you have cancer.

Hunt could sort out the plight of whistleblowers very easily, it appears he chooses not to do so.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
IroningMan said:
Presumably that is Mr Hunt's fault, too?
It might even be his predecessor.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
IroningMan said:
Presumably that is Mr Hunt's fault, too?
It might even be his predecessor.
Hunt's the man in the chair now, he's the one with the power to sort things out now. For those who suffer it's more important that their suffering stops, than pointing fingers at who started it.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
Hunt's the man in the chair now, he's the one with the power to sort things out now.
Any changes seem to be vehemently opposed by those involved.

IanA2 said:
For those who suffer it's more important that their suffering stops, than pointing fingers at who started it.
Note the bit earlier regarding predecessors. This was my version of sarcasm.

sawman

4,915 posts

229 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
I think 968 alluded to this a few pages back, but the fundamental problem with the NHS is that successive governments have dragged it from pillar to post to suit their own respective agendas

if the nhs was taken out of government control and set to answer to a cross party board, a long term direction could finally be set instead of the 3-5 year view that has been the pattern of its management to date.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
IanA2 said:
Hunt's the man in the chair now, he's the one with the power to sort things out now.
Any changes seem to be vehemently opposed by those involved.

IanA2 said:
For those who suffer it's more important that their suffering stops, than pointing fingers at who started it.
Note the bit earlier regarding predecessors. This was my version of sarcasm.
Re 1 above. I was talking specifically about whistleblowing. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

2 above. Ok.

Mr GrimNasty

8,172 posts

169 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Well at an initial £350K of taxpayer funded training, a way forward would be for Junior Doctors to sign a 15 year handcuffs contract with a sliding agreement to repay costs to the taxpayer if they leave early. Also any additional training costs should be added to the pot.

That's certainly what will happen if they don't drop their selfish unrealistic sense of entitlement (or rather stop letting themselves being used as political pawns).

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Mr GrimNasty said:
Well at an initial £350K of taxpayer funded training, a way forward would be for Junior Doctors to sign a 15 year handcuffs contract with a sliding agreement to repay costs to the taxpayer if they leave early. Also any additional training costs should be added to the pot.

That's certainly what will happen if they don't drop their selfish unrealistic sense of entitlement (or rather stop letting themselves being used as political pawns).
We don't put handcuffs on any other University training. Why are doctors special?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Mr GrimNasty said:
Well at an initial £350K of taxpayer funded training, a way forward would be for Junior Doctors to sign a 15 year handcuffs contract with a sliding agreement to repay costs to the taxpayer if they leave early. Also any additional training costs should be added to the pot.

That's certainly what will happen if they don't drop their selfish unrealistic sense of entitlement (or rather stop letting themselves being used as political pawns).
Not sure of current costs, but I think the average cost to train to consultant level was about one million. Obviously undergraduates now make a contribution and certainly postgraduate training is not funded to the extent that it used to be. Also, remember, there are no tax breaks on training costs as HMRC take the view that your (necessary) training is for your own advancement.

As for "sense of entitlement" Get real. you really don't have a clue what sort of vicious employers some trusts have become. Not surprising really, it is one of those things that is extremely difficult to understand without real close up experience.

ETA: This will give you some idea of the lengths some trusts will go to: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3443311/Br... And Raj is just one of many.

Edited by IanA2 on Friday 12th February 19:44

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
0000 said:
968 said:
And for those who persist in believing this outright lie from Hunt that you can utilise the same number of staff over 7 days who struggle with 5, what will happen is they will work on weekends but then there will be less during the week when they are really needed [snip]
So, is it an outright lie, or will there just be less staff on during the week?
0000, I asked few pages ago if you could provide the link for your statement that someone said that 90% of jd will/would emigrate. If you could do that I'd be very grateful. Thanks.

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Mr GrimNasty said:
Well at an initial £350K of taxpayer funded training, a way forward would be for Junior Doctors to sign a 15 year handcuffs contract with a sliding agreement to repay costs to the taxpayer if they leave early. Also any additional training costs should be added to the pot.

That's certainly what will happen if they don't drop their selfish unrealistic sense of entitlement (or rather stop letting themselves being used as political pawns).
Even by fairly low standard of posts on this thread, this one is one of the dumbest. Yes, they should be forced to sign contract, so that they can't leave, and also accept any changes that whoever is in charge deems necessary. So, when some numpty decides that they should be on minimum wage, they should just take it, or leave and pay the 'fine'.

You like Trump don't you?

sawman

4,915 posts

229 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
0000, I asked few pages ago if you could provide the link for your statement that someone said that 90% of jd will/would emigrate. If you could do that I'd be very grateful. Thanks.
I am sure many will think about it, but i am not sure where they will all go to, in reality i think a lot will end up staying here and being disgruntled and demotivated. Incidentally does any one have any stats regarding burnout in medics in the uk, in the US its is quite a high figure

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
sawman said:
jjlynn27 said:
0000, I asked few pages ago if you could provide the link for your statement that someone said that 90% of jd will/would emigrate. If you could do that I'd be very grateful. Thanks.
I am sure many will think about it, but i am not sure where they will all go to, in reality i think a lot will end up staying here and being disgruntled and demotivated. Incidentally does any one have any stats regarding burnout in medics in the uk, in the US its is quite a high figure
Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw. Of course some will elect to go to Scotland or Wales where there's no new contract.

Pulse did a "burn out" survey for GP's. Was very high.

sawman

4,915 posts

229 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.
whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?