Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[Dixy]

tdog7 said:

loafer123 said:

Thanks for the explanation. Doesn't this mean that some doctors may be doing hours they don't need to and others aren't being paid for the extra hours they work?

Why wouldn't you just clock in and out like the retail, leisure and manufacturing industries?

Its quite hard to explain without a rota in front of you. Essentially all hospital doctors are paid to be at work from 8am - 5pm Monday to Friday (other than A&E which I'll explain later). These doctors also participate in an 'on call' rota. On call is a bit of a misnomer, as it implies you might've to work, but you might not. In reality 'on call' hours are busier than non on call. Most hospital doctors are resident on call, meaning they are at the hospital for their on call shifts. A small percentage are 'non resident' meaning they can be at home, unless they are called in, but have to be available to come in or give advice over the phone throughout their shift.

We could have a system whereby doctors clock in and clock out, but I guarantee you, if this were to exist, the additional pay the NHS would have to give to doctors for the hundreds of hours they do each week which are currently unpaid, would bankrupt the NHS rapidly.

Currently the number of doctors required on the on call rota is decided by the hospital, based on their workload.

Its true that some doctors do better out of the current system than others. Those who are no resident on call do well as they may be at home for a whole shift and be paid the same as those who are at the hospital for a whole shift. However, the proposed contract is even worse, massively undervaluing non resident on call work - don't forget, that these doctors have to be available to give advice or come to the hospital straight away if called.

The nature of the work also means that some shifts are busier than others. On occasion, I get to sit down during a 13 hour night shift, sometimes even have something to eat, but far more often I don't stop from 8pm until 9am the next day.

A&E is slightly different in that everyone is on a rota with various shift patterns.

tdog some excellent insight in to the facts in your posts.

Just to add one other reason why they dont operate a clock in and out system, that is equally critical as the cost, it would actually provide evidence of the dangerously and illegally worked hours. At the moment there is plausible deniability with only carefully selected check rotas.

[Dixy]

mph1977 said:

Dixy said:

<snip>
tdog some excellent insight in to the facts in your posts.

Just to add one other reason why they dont operate a clock in and out system, that is equally critical as the cost, it would actually provide evidence of the dangerously and illegally worked hours. At the moment there is plausible deniability with only carefully selected check rotas.

If it's seen as 'demeaning' to other health professionals to clock in , god knows what it must be for the almighty doctors ...

it;s part of the historical baggage the NHS carries around over status ... fortunately reserved seating in canteens or even a seperate dining room with table service for consultants and managers , limited access to junior staff corridors and extensive provision of 'consultant's car parks' and 'senior management car parks' has gone by the by but that was a reality in many hospitals within the past 15 -20 years if not later ...

Where do you get that they dont clock in and out because it would be demeaning. It is quite right that patients should be kept waiting to go in to theater or die in A&E rather than allowing those arrogant consultants to have priority parking.

[Dixy]

The junior Doctors have voted not to accept the new contract, the BMA rep has resigned, but I expect Hunt to do a Corbin.
One of the main stumbling blocks was the total failure of the new contract from stopping trusts abusing the number of hours a doctor can be scheduled to work in any one week.

[Dixy]

numtumfutunch said:

Oh no

I support the junior docs but if you refuse a deal negotiated by your union and ACAS then what next?

The BMA had been under pressure from all the Royal Colleges as the consultants contract are next up. What keeps being overlooked by most is the JDs are more than capable of reading and assessing the contract themselves and reaching their own conclusions.
Slightly puts the dampers on all those that said the sheep doctors were being led by the union.

[Dixy]

So Hunt fighting dirty, does not want the Junior Doctors to be heard in open court, he has tried to put up a financial barrier to squash the hearing, Looks like he has failed because Joe Public is willing to put their money where their mouth is. You can too, here:

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/nhs/?cjb=KyH_2...

[Dixy]

Sid you keep going on about the pension, yes it is good, what is frequently overlooked is that the percentage is increased for higher paid staff. This always assumes that the guberment will not move the goal posts when the current JDs get to retire.
Why dont you accept that these are seriously bright people who are able to take in to consideration all the variables before reaching the conclusion they are being shafted.

[Dixy]

The BMA have made one simple request to call off the strike, withdraw the imposition of the contract. Hunt has said take it or leave it and the JDs have said OK we will leave it. As far as sympathy goes, the JDs would like it but at the end of the day when you are having your heart attack, will you say "I'm not going to a doctor cos they went on strike"

[Dixy]

andyps said:

ucb said:

I suspect that most junir doctors are largely unconcerned with regard to future potential benefits that are subject to change. The important aspects appear to be intensity and frequency of work patterns which are widely reported to be significantly better in the other destinations of choice.

I was thinking about this - if the dispite is partly about work patterns and trying to show that we currently have a 7 day NHS surely it would be appropriate to hold the strikes at weekend to demonstrate the impact of not working then. But maybe there is a reason the BMA chose not to do this.

2 very good points, the new contract is unsafe because it removes the financial penalty currently imposed on trusts for scheduling illegal and seriously unsafe rotas, so this will become the norm to cover for the already desperate staff shortage.
At present the consultants cover JDs absence by cancelling/postponing non urgent work, at nights and weekends there are only just adequate consultants on duty for critical work, if they strike at night or weekends then there will be too high a risk to patients.

To the poster that said if they don't go back to work they will have blood on their hands, I would point out that if they do go back to work they will literally have blood on their hands, its what they do and we don't value them despite it.

[Dixy]

Hosenbugler you have a rather strange lack of understanding of what goes on for someone with a family member that works in the NHS.
The lack of 24/7 has nothing to do with JDs. if you go in to a hospital at 3 am on a boxing day morning the person you are most likely to bump in to is a JD.
As to the consequences of striking being laid at the feet of the person that strikes, perhaps you should consider that the employers are equally liable, All Hunt has to do to stop these strikes is withdraw the imposition of the contract. He clearly thinks that war war is better than jaw jaw. This escalation is as a result of him playing brinkmanship.
For those that do not understand the safety concerns of work load put on JDs, my daughter has just ended a rotas of 7 consecutive nights, starting at 8.30 pm and ending at 9.30 am but only once managing to leave the hospital by 11 am. This is more hours in 7 days than a truck driver is allowed to work in 3 weeks, because the trucker might make mistakes if they are tired. The consequences of a JD who can not think straight because of fatigue will be dumped on that doctor by a trust that dos not care.

[Dixy]

Hunt gave the BMA a deal and said take it or leave it, the BMA, under pressure from the RCs agreed to try and sell it to the members. Unfortunately for Hunt through his inflexibility this whole sorry escapade has gathered so much momentum that the members said NO.
Hunts agenda is to privatize the NHS, he even wrote a book about it, so all this plays in to his hands. Ironically if he succeeds Doctors salaries in the future will rocket, an inconvenient truth for those that say the strike is all about self interest..

[Dixy]

Hosenbugler said:

From a personal point of view if a relative of mine died because of the deliberate withdrawal of medical care by a "Striker" (because striking is entirely voluntary and premeditated) I would expect to see them in the dock answering for their actions.

No one will die because of a striker, the trusts have a statutory duty to provide care. The strikers have a legal right to withdraw their labour. The problem is Hunts.

[Dixy]

Rude-boy said:

Why not just go off to one of these Utopias?

They are in their droves, or leaving the industry totally.
Part of the critical JD shortage and consequential overworking of present doctors is the NHS inability to fill vacancys. Hence why they are changing the contract so there will be no penalty for infringing on unacceptable rotas.

Being legally absent from work means what goes on in your absence is not your fault, so it will be the fault of the trust
if a patient dies due to lack of care, the fact the trust can not get a clinician is the fault of Hunt.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

Thanks for the Crystal Ball Mk2 update.

The Mk1 prediction must have been troubling

Mk1 and 2 say the same thing, the fact that the SOS has backed the doctors in to a corner with only one remedy means Hunt must shoulder all the blame.
Again the only thing Hunt has to do to stop the strike is withdraw his insistence on imposing the contract, no other condition.
The fact that the junior doctors are willing to even consider such action should make him at least review.
As I said before he is playing brinkmanship.

[Dixy]

barryrs said:

Between 2006 and 2014 a total of 2200 British doctors took a job in Aus.

Thats 244 per year and im sure many will have returned since.

On the flip side the NHS has recruited 3000 doctors from overseas in a single year as reported in the guardian last year.

But that is just Aus, 4741 left in 2014, so a net loss of over 1700.

Source http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/finance-and-pract...

I have no idea how reliable.

[Dixy]

Sylvaforever said:

I'm afraid 99.9% of uk citizens will see that EXACTLY for what it is.

Until the day they need them, when they cant drive because of a detached retina or find a lump in their left breast or the rash on their child's arm does not disappear when a glass is rolled over it. Then they would gladly hand over the deeds to their house just for the doctors to work their magic.
But at the moment the JDs are just an irritant.
My Daughter worked 62 hours this week, drove 120 miles last night to spend the weekend on a revision course for her part 2 RCS exam. The course, travel and hotel will cost her over a thousand pounds, the exam will cost her £950. All out of her own pocket. And she will be back in the hospital at 8.30 am on Monday morning.
All so when your appendix bursts you wont die an agonizing death of peritonitis.

What the JDs have asked for is to be treated fairly, what hunt has done is put a knife to their throat and he is now crying foul because the JDs have put a gun to his head.

So before all you keyboard warriors come out attacking me again, just imagine its 2 am on Sunday morning, your shattered right ulna is sticking out through the skin and you are just arriving at A & E. Are all JDs greedy scum.

[Dixy]

PurpleMoonlight said:

we bloody pay for it.

No we dont, we pay tax and the state decides how it will squander it, so again your beef is with the paymasters.

[Dixy]

glazbagun said:

but I'm in the dark as to which ones.

Despite what google and the rest of the media say one of the biggest concerns is the new contract removes the penaltys imposed on trusts for riding roughshod over rotas agreements and working hours. Tiered doctors make mistakes and ruin patients lives and their careers, the trusts view them as cannon fodder.

[Dixy]

M3333 said:

spoilt left wing brats

Edited by M3333 on Saturday 3rd September 10:21

I will happily accept spoilt and brats of my daughter and many of her colleagues but as I have said till I am blue in the face in this thread, left wing and anti tory is so far from the truth to make it laughable.

[Dixy]

The rotas thing is impossible to understand if you do not work them.
Rotas should be issued 6 weeks before they start.
Like most JDs my daughter left hospital "a" at 5 pm on August 2nd and started at hospital "b" 120 miles away on August 3rd. August 3rd was the day she got her rotas, despite having tried and tried for the previous 4 weeks.
Over the first 4 months she has 4 sets of long night rotas that not only mean she should be on a higher banding but also contravene the rules.
Yes there are complicated systems in place to challenge this, but her line manager is the consultant so it is not down to them, HR are impossible to contact. At the end of the day she sees her job as mending broken people not working the system.
This constant st is what has pushed them over the edge

[Dixy]

PurpleMoonlight said:

People are going to die solely because doctors are on strike. How are you going to solve that problem?

I accept people are going to suffer both more pain and inconvenience, ironically I am one of them, but because they have the backing of the consultants the critical will be dealt with but the desirable will be postponed.
If however Hunt gets his way then people will die for all the reasons so articulately explained above.
For those that think that the politicians have a master plan and understand what is going on, dream on as it becomes a nightmare.