Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
The Doctors do several years of study before the qualify as Doctor. Unlike a normal degree whilst they are in med school they are working in hospitals.
After they pass the first level and become a Junior Doctor, they then start work full time and in the same way as every other job works, or apprenticeship, they work whilst carrying on learning.
I know it becoming popular with some companies, to link training, which helps their business, to the cost and try to "handcuff people" until some arbitrary time they feel they have had value.
What this suggests to me is they feel unable to create a work place environment that people would want to stay for so being unable to d that they try to make people stay with such restrictions.
What many on here refuse to see past is the hatred of any public employee. They love the term public servant, which is how people see them, to do their bidding for little reward, but we got rid of servitude, or I thought we had.
Before, the turn over of British Doctors was low, now Hunt has accelerated that, without doubt and the figures for Doctors wanting to leave is up. Many of these will have completed 10 years work in the NHS so far, so how long do you think they should be forced to stay? Many say that it does not matter if they leave, we will just take Doctors from other countries, countries who have also paid for theirs to be trained sometimes at more cost than our country some from countries where they have a bigger issue than we do with health.
It makes me sad as so many on here who are the most verbose will be the very ones kicking off when there is no one to see them, or a loved one does not get the care they deserve and their answer will be to sue and somehow that will make it better.
We need good Doctors, which we produce, but we need them to stay. The anger in the NHS is huge as all staff know Hunt is after them now, there is also genuine anger with the public who see the pitfalls of what he has done.
He quoted 20 NHS leaders as supporting his action, yet 10 said he lied as they did not agree to the imposition of contracts. How can anyone believe a word he says?
After they pass the first level and become a Junior Doctor, they then start work full time and in the same way as every other job works, or apprenticeship, they work whilst carrying on learning.
I know it becoming popular with some companies, to link training, which helps their business, to the cost and try to "handcuff people" until some arbitrary time they feel they have had value.
What this suggests to me is they feel unable to create a work place environment that people would want to stay for so being unable to d that they try to make people stay with such restrictions.
What many on here refuse to see past is the hatred of any public employee. They love the term public servant, which is how people see them, to do their bidding for little reward, but we got rid of servitude, or I thought we had.
Before, the turn over of British Doctors was low, now Hunt has accelerated that, without doubt and the figures for Doctors wanting to leave is up. Many of these will have completed 10 years work in the NHS so far, so how long do you think they should be forced to stay? Many say that it does not matter if they leave, we will just take Doctors from other countries, countries who have also paid for theirs to be trained sometimes at more cost than our country some from countries where they have a bigger issue than we do with health.
It makes me sad as so many on here who are the most verbose will be the very ones kicking off when there is no one to see them, or a loved one does not get the care they deserve and their answer will be to sue and somehow that will make it better.
We need good Doctors, which we produce, but we need them to stay. The anger in the NHS is huge as all staff know Hunt is after them now, there is also genuine anger with the public who see the pitfalls of what he has done.
He quoted 20 NHS leaders as supporting his action, yet 10 said he lied as they did not agree to the imposition of contracts. How can anyone believe a word he says?
spaximus said:
The Doctors do several years of study before the qualify as Doctor. Unlike a normal degree whilst they are in med school they are working in hospitals.
After they pass the first level and become a Junior Doctor, they then start work full time and in the same way as every other job works, or apprenticeship, they work whilst carrying on learning.
I know it becoming popular with some companies, to link training, which helps their business, to the cost and try to "handcuff people" until some arbitrary time they feel they have had value.
What this suggests to me is they feel unable to create a work place environment that people would want to stay for so being unable to d that they try to make people stay with such restrictions.
What many on here refuse to see past is the hatred of any public employee. They love the term public servant, which is how people see them, to do their bidding for little reward, but we got rid of servitude, or I thought we had.
Before, the turn over of British Doctors was low, now Hunt has accelerated that, without doubt and the figures for Doctors wanting to leave is up. Many of these will have completed 10 years work in the NHS so far, so how long do you think they should be forced to stay? Many say that it does not matter if they leave, we will just take Doctors from other countries, countries who have also paid for theirs to be trained sometimes at more cost than our country some from countries where they have a bigger issue than we do with health.
It makes me sad as so many on here who are the most verbose will be the very ones kicking off when there is no one to see them, or a loved one does not get the care they deserve and their answer will be to sue and somehow that will make it better.
We need good Doctors, which we produce, but we need them to stay. The anger in the NHS is huge as all staff know Hunt is after them now, there is also genuine anger with the public who see the pitfalls of what he has done.
He quoted 20 NHS leaders as supporting his action, yet 10 said he lied as they did not agree to the imposition of contracts. How can anyone believe a word he says?
It's 14 now, from HSJ:After they pass the first level and become a Junior Doctor, they then start work full time and in the same way as every other job works, or apprenticeship, they work whilst carrying on learning.
I know it becoming popular with some companies, to link training, which helps their business, to the cost and try to "handcuff people" until some arbitrary time they feel they have had value.
What this suggests to me is they feel unable to create a work place environment that people would want to stay for so being unable to d that they try to make people stay with such restrictions.
What many on here refuse to see past is the hatred of any public employee. They love the term public servant, which is how people see them, to do their bidding for little reward, but we got rid of servitude, or I thought we had.
Before, the turn over of British Doctors was low, now Hunt has accelerated that, without doubt and the figures for Doctors wanting to leave is up. Many of these will have completed 10 years work in the NHS so far, so how long do you think they should be forced to stay? Many say that it does not matter if they leave, we will just take Doctors from other countries, countries who have also paid for theirs to be trained sometimes at more cost than our country some from countries where they have a bigger issue than we do with health.
It makes me sad as so many on here who are the most verbose will be the very ones kicking off when there is no one to see them, or a loved one does not get the care they deserve and their answer will be to sue and somehow that will make it better.
We need good Doctors, which we produce, but we need them to stay. The anger in the NHS is huge as all staff know Hunt is after them now, there is also genuine anger with the public who see the pitfalls of what he has done.
He quoted 20 NHS leaders as supporting his action, yet 10 said he lied as they did not agree to the imposition of contracts. How can anyone believe a word he says?
Wasn't there public outrage not that long ago that a drugs company was charging a high rate for its drugs..... Um it's a commercial entity which takes risks and has lots of come to nothing products all costing huge sums and then maybe there is a winner then it's time to cash in firstly to cover the losses and development costs and then a profit.
Otherwise it's simply not fun.
Happy for Govts to buy the licence and produce it themselves
Otherwise it's simply not fun.
Happy for Govts to buy the licence and produce it themselves
SpeedMattersNot said:
The petition to consider a vote of no confidence in Mr Hunt is racking up significant numbers. When I last checked, I couldn't fresh it faster than 1 signature per refresh.
It'll be as irrelevant as all of the other petitions that get shared on Facebook, but at least it makes the people who sign & share it feel like they're making a difference to the world. Here's one for the MP's to work on Saturdays:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/120753
Obviously if Junior Doctors have to work weekends, everybody else has to.
Edited by Gogoplata on Saturday 13th February 00:19
spaximus said:
What many on here refuse to see past is the hatred of any public employee. They love the term public servant, which is how people see them, to do their bidding for little reward, but we got rid of servitude, or I thought we had.
Any public servant is able to work in the private sector anytime they wish.And so they may IF they think the grass is greener, however, 1.3 million employees seem to prefer the slave trade that is the NHS.
How many vacancies do Oz have? I simply cannot believe thousands of UK doctors will go out there
If Oz has thousands of vacancies then it's healthcare must be in utter shambles - is that the case.
All well and good saying you'd leave UK to go to Oz doing it is a different case. Think time zones realistically you have a one hour slot each day for calls to family and friends that isn't long and no doubt could mean long time frame between chats. Likewise friends stay in UK your all alone in Oz fresh start but your friends cannot afford to travel to Oz.
Bush fires 50 degree heat droughts very high living costs. Oz exports are in dire straights as China puts on the brakes so the economy is tanking.
Brave.
If like to try it for s holiday
If Oz has thousands of vacancies then it's healthcare must be in utter shambles - is that the case.
All well and good saying you'd leave UK to go to Oz doing it is a different case. Think time zones realistically you have a one hour slot each day for calls to family and friends that isn't long and no doubt could mean long time frame between chats. Likewise friends stay in UK your all alone in Oz fresh start but your friends cannot afford to travel to Oz.
Bush fires 50 degree heat droughts very high living costs. Oz exports are in dire straights as China puts on the brakes so the economy is tanking.
Brave.
If like to try it for s holiday
How many vacancies do Oz have? I simply cannot believe thousands of UK doctors will go out there
If Oz has thousands of vacancies then it's healthcare must be in utter shambles - is that the case.
All well and good saying you'd leave UK to go to Oz doing it is a different case. Think time zones realistically you have a one hour slot each day for calls to family and friends that isn't long and no doubt could mean long time frame between chats. Likewise friends stay in UK your all alone in Oz fresh start but your friends cannot afford to travel to Oz.
Bush fires 50 degree heat droughts very high living costs. Oz exports are in dire straights as China puts on the brakes so the economy is tanking.
Brave.
If like to try it for s holiday
If Oz has thousands of vacancies then it's healthcare must be in utter shambles - is that the case.
All well and good saying you'd leave UK to go to Oz doing it is a different case. Think time zones realistically you have a one hour slot each day for calls to family and friends that isn't long and no doubt could mean long time frame between chats. Likewise friends stay in UK your all alone in Oz fresh start but your friends cannot afford to travel to Oz.
Bush fires 50 degree heat droughts very high living costs. Oz exports are in dire straights as China puts on the brakes so the economy is tanking.
Brave.
If like to try it for s holiday
IanA2 said:
Did the company pay his school fees and underwrite his maternity costs? Doubt it....
Ridiculous post. Its about choice.I am one of the above who had to sign an agreement to stay with an employer following addtional training. In fact I left within that period and had to pay back a percentage.
The reason it is fair is that it was my choice to undertake the training through that company. I could have paid for it myself. I could have quit my job and gone without pay for 6 months while I attended the training. Instead I chose to sign the deal. When I left after 1 year I paid a percentage of the moneys owed back. That included wages paid, course fees and expenses paid.
A trainee doctor decided to go through medical training, he does not decide to be born or go to school, which in this country is still free if you so wish. It was his parents living in this country that earned him that right.
As for the rest of the debate. I support the doctors. I have not read all of this thread and I prob do not know the full story, however what I do see in this country is cut cut cut, yet taxes rise. Where is this money going? Well thats a topic for another thread but cuts have to stop at some point when it affects people. With the NHS that is not just the patients, it's the workers too. Ask any person on here if he would willingly accept his employer changed his working week from 5 to 7 days, he would say no. Ask him to change his 2 days off a week from sat and sun, to Monday and Friday, he would prob say no - I want extra pay, the weekends are the only time I can spend time with my kids. Ask him to stay late every day until he clears his inbox and completes every project. He would say no.
Yet when the government asks this of a doctor he must bow down and say yes, because A he is a doctor, and B, because he already gets well paid (not if you actually count the hours he works - not his contracted hours).
I'm not a politician, or a good writer so I await the shoot down!
finnie said:
IanA2 said:
Did the company pay his school fees and underwrite his maternity costs? Doubt it....
Ridiculous post. Its about choice.I am one of the above who had to sign an agreement to stay with an employer following addtional training. In fact I left within that period and had to pay back a percentage.
The reason it is fair is that it was my choice to undertake the training through that company. I could have paid for it myself. I could have quit my job and gone without pay for 6 months while I attended the training. Instead I chose to sign the deal. When I left after 1 year I paid a percentage of the moneys owed back. That included wages paid, course fees and expenses paid.
A trainee doctor decided to go through medical training, he does not decide to be born or go to school, which in this country is still free if you so wish. It was his parents living in this country that earned him that right.
As for the rest of the debate. I support the doctors. I have not read all of this thread and I prob do not know the full story, however what I do see in this country is cut cut cut, yet taxes rise. Where is this money going? Well thats a topic for another thread but cuts have to stop at some point when it affects people. With the NHS that is not just the patients, it's the workers too. Ask any person on here if he would willingly accept his employer changed his working week from 5 to 7 days, he would say no. Ask him to change his 2 days off a week from sat and sun, to Monday and Friday, he would prob say no - I want extra pay, the weekends are the only time I can spend time with my kids. Ask him to stay late every day until he clears his inbox and completes every project. He would say no.
Yet when the government asks this of a doctor he must bow down and say yes, because A he is a doctor, and B, because he already gets well paid (not if you actually count the hours he works - not his contracted hours).
I'm not a politician, or a good writer so I await the shoot down!
As an aside, I find it risible for you to compare a six month training course with fifteen years study/training required to become a consultant. Very illuminating.
finnie said:
IanA2 said:
Did the company pay his school fees and underwrite his maternity costs? Doubt it....
Ridiculous post. Its about choice.I am one of the above who had to sign an agreement to stay with an employer following addtional training. In fact I left within that period and had to pay back a percentage.
The reason it is fair is that it was my choice to undertake the training through that company. I could have paid for it myself. I could have quit my job and gone without pay for 6 months while I attended the training. Instead I chose to sign the deal. When I left after 1 year I paid a percentage of the moneys owed back. That included wages paid, course fees and expenses paid.
A trainee doctor decided to go through medical training, he does not decide to be born or go to school, which in this country is still free if you so wish. It was his parents living in this country that earned him that right.
As for the rest of the debate. I support the doctors. I have not read all of this thread and I prob do not know the full story, however what I do see in this country is cut cut cut, yet taxes rise. Where is this money going? Well thats a topic for another thread but cuts have to stop at some point when it affects people. With the NHS that is not just the patients, it's the workers too. Ask any person on here if he would willingly accept his employer changed his working week from 5 to 7 days, he would say no. Ask him to change his 2 days off a week from sat and sun, to Monday and Friday, he would prob say no - I want extra pay, the weekends are the only time I can spend time with my kids. Ask him to stay late every day until he clears his inbox and completes every project. He would say no.
Yet when the government asks this of a doctor he must bow down and say yes, because A he is a doctor, and B, because he already gets well paid (not if you actually count the hours he works - not his contracted hours).
I'm not a politician, or a good writer so I await the shoot down!
PRTVR said:
finnie said:
IanA2 said:
Did the company pay his school fees and underwrite his maternity costs? Doubt it....
Ridiculous post. Its about choice.I am one of the above who had to sign an agreement to stay with an employer following addtional training. In fact I left within that period and had to pay back a percentage.
The reason it is fair is that it was my choice to undertake the training through that company. I could have paid for it myself. I could have quit my job and gone without pay for 6 months while I attended the training. Instead I chose to sign the deal. When I left after 1 year I paid a percentage of the moneys owed back. That included wages paid, course fees and expenses paid.
A trainee doctor decided to go through medical training, he does not decide to be born or go to school, which in this country is still free if you so wish. It was his parents living in this country that earned him that right.
As for the rest of the debate. I support the doctors. I have not read all of this thread and I prob do not know the full story, however what I do see in this country is cut cut cut, yet taxes rise. Where is this money going? Well thats a topic for another thread but cuts have to stop at some point when it affects people. With the NHS that is not just the patients, it's the workers too. Ask any person on here if he would willingly accept his employer changed his working week from 5 to 7 days, he would say no. Ask him to change his 2 days off a week from sat and sun, to Monday and Friday, he would prob say no - I want extra pay, the weekends are the only time I can spend time with my kids. Ask him to stay late every day until he clears his inbox and completes every project. He would say no.
Yet when the government asks this of a doctor he must bow down and say yes, because A he is a doctor, and B, because he already gets well paid (not if you actually count the hours he works - not his contracted hours).
I'm not a politician, or a good writer so I await the shoot down!
One, why pick on doctors?
Two, why limit "pay back" to further eduction/training? Primary and secondary schooling costs a lot.
Three, how would a doctor "pay back" fifteen years of education/training even if it was thought remotely reasonable.
Off to chew my desk.....
voyds9 said:
Any public servant is able to work in the private sector anytime they wish.
And so they may IF they think the grass is greener, however, 1.3 million employees seem to prefer the slave trade that is the NHS.
Actually they can't work in the private sector as in order to do so, a doctor must be on the specialist register to see private patients which junior doctors are not. They are in effect forced to work in the NHS. The alternative is to resign their training post become a locum and remain in career limbo with no progression as there is no structured training in such posts.And so they may IF they think the grass is greener, however, 1.3 million employees seem to prefer the slave trade that is the NHS.
The most likely scenario is that a lot will go to Australia and New Zealand where many already go and there is a demand for doctors, others will go to Wales and Scotkand where this absurd contract is not implemented and where *unt has no authority.
PRTVR said:
Very well written and covers a lot of how I feel, I support the doctors and agree what is been done to them is wrong, I was just pointing out that in other industries they have a pay back period, if the doctors sign up to it at the beginning of his training he would know what wass expected of them, who knows it might make conditions better for them with a reduction in turn over of doctors and a reduction in work load.
They don't get paid to go to medical school. They finish med school with at least £30-40k debt. They then start working as juniors and certainly give back far in excess of what they are paid in terms of time and effort. The training thereafter is largely self directed and certainly requires a significant investment from the JDs to attend courses, buy books and pay extortionate fees for professional exams, all the while the work incredibly hard, more than paying back what is given to them. If you think that signing up doctors to enforced terms would make conditions better then this dispute shows you how patently wrong that position is. The govt have no interest in the working conditions of doctors or their welfare. All they care about is spending the least amount of money possible. This applies to all politicians of all colours as I worked as a JD under different colour govt and was utterly exploited by all of them. 968 said:
PRTVR said:
Very well written and covers a lot of how I feel, I support the doctors and agree what is been done to them is wrong, I was just pointing out that in other industries they have a pay back period, if the doctors sign up to it at the beginning of his training he would know what wass expected of them, who knows it might make conditions better for them with a reduction in turn over of doctors and a reduction in work load.
They don't get paid to go to medical school. They finish med school with at least £30-40k debt. They then start working as juniors and certainly give back far in excess of what they are paid in terms of time and effort. The training thereafter is largely self directed and certainly requires a significant investment from the JDs to attend courses, buy books and pay extortionate fees for professional exams, all the while the work incredibly hard, more than paying back what is given to them. If you think that signing up doctors to enforced terms would make conditions better then this dispute shows you how patently wrong that position is. The govt have no interest in the working conditions of doctors or their welfare. All they care about is spending the least amount of money possible. This applies to all politicians of all colours as I worked as a JD under different colour govt and was utterly exploited by all of them. 
PRTVR said:
My mistake, I was under the impression they were paid up to £40000 during training.
Unfortunately, the spin created by the Government and the media, has lead to this misapprehension among the public.I dont think they will be making 40k until they are a few years into specialist training probably registrar level working 60hrs+ per week
finnie said:
As for the rest of the debate. I support the doctors. I have not read all of this thread and I prob do not know the full story, however what I do see in this country is cut cut cut, yet taxes rise. Where is this money going? Well thats a topic for another thread but cuts have to stop at some point when it affects people.
Spending isn't being cut, no matter what people claim. That is where the money is going.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff