Junior Doctor's contracts petition

Junior Doctor's contracts petition

Author
Discussion

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
Seven day working. A breakfast explanation.

Let me make this simple.

You have 5g of marmalade and five pieces of toast. Marmalade is spread in equal amounts on each piece of toast. Ergo, one gram per slice.

You then decide you want seven pieces of toast, all with marmalade, but you still have only 5g of marmalade. To do this equitably, each piece of toast will have 0.714g of marmalade.

However, if you want to have all seven pieces with the same marmalade spread as when you had five pieces and only 5g of marmalade, you will need a further 2g of marmalade.

Over to you Mr Tolstoy.



Leithen

10,800 posts

266 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
.....

Over to you Mr Tolstoy.


That Tolstoy quote sums up one of my GPs perfectly.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
Seven day working. A breakfast explanation.
I've got a similar problem at work, too much to do and not enough time to do it, as I see it my options are: a) buy another new building, equip it with more of the same machinery that I already have, and employ more staff, or b) move from a single shift pattern to a two or three shift pattern and make better use of the facilities I already have. Is it so different for the NHS?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
I've got a similar problem at work, too much to do and not enough time to do it, as I see it my options are: a) buy another new building, equip it with more of the same machinery that I already have, and employ more staff, or b) move from a single shift pattern to a two or three shift pattern and make better use of the facilities I already have. Is it so different for the NHS?
I refer you to Mr Tolstoy.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
thestew said:
all this worry about the cost of training JDs and them leaving for greener pastures. A quote from a fairly successful British businessman is very relevant.
"Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to".
which is something the NHS is notoriously poor at , however it;s not (solely) a political problem , the problem is actually health professional education and selection 30 -40 years ago combined with the utter lack of understanding of healthcare of the recent generation of lay Management.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
thestew said:
all this worry about the cost of training JDs and them leaving for greener pastures. A quote from a fairly successful British businessman is very relevant.
"Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to".
which is something the NHS is notoriously poor at , however it;s not (solely) a political problem , 1. the problem is actually health professional education and selection 30 -40 years ago combined with 2. the utter lack of understanding of healthcare of the recent generation of lay Management.
1. No

2. Yes

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
mph1977 said:
thestew said:
all this worry about the cost of training JDs and them leaving for greener pastures. A quote from a fairly successful British businessman is very relevant.
"Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to".
which is something the NHS is notoriously poor at , however it;s not (solely) a political problem , 1. the problem is actually health professional education and selection 30 -40 years ago combined with 2. the utter lack of understanding of healthcare of the recent generation of lay Management.
1. No

2. Yes
with regard to 1 - yes it is as these are the individuals who are currently the alleged 'Leaders' of clinical practice in academe and in both lay and professional specific management ...

still a few too many stereotypical medical consultants, senior ' operational' ambulance managers who trrained when being 'striong in't arm and thick in t'head was enough to come a qualified ambulance person wif you could rote learn the green and blue books , ' good little girls' in Nursing Management whose lack of education is remarkably obvious to anyone who has to interact with them ( and the negative, bullying, cool girls at the back of the bikesheds culture that pervades Nursing )

sawman

4,915 posts

229 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
PRTVR said:
I did say up to £40000, a quick Google shows I was not far off.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-all...
from a comment earlier I understood we were talking about under grad training ie Medical school.

just to be clear
undergrad medics are not paid they rack up student loans like everyone else

after graduation they get paid 22k according to your link, by the time they get to 40k they are registrars and will have significant responsibility, making many life and death decisions every day, dealing with difficult and challenging issues from dawn til dusk and back again.
This progression will have taken the thick end of 10 years and in addition to working long hours under extremely high pressure they will be studying to progress their training, providing the skills to succeed previous generations of consultants.

Having had the misfortune to spend a week in hospital before christmas, I can attest that these young people are a credit to themselves and the education system which has helped them develop.

If they all up and leave, to find employment opportunities where they are valued rather than rode roughshod over, good luck to them, but I fear that in 10 or 15 years time when we are in dire need high calibre medical staff, major questions will be asked as to how this was allowed to happen.

On the plus side for now the foundation trusts, by choosing not to impose the new contract will be easily able to fill posts by recruiting staff from the non foundation trusts who are going to have to impose the new contract.

sawman

4,915 posts

229 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
with regard to 1 - yes it is as these are the individuals who are currently the alleged 'Leaders' of clinical practice in academe and in both lay and professional specific management ...

still a few too many stereotypical medical consultants, senior ' operational' ambulance managers who trrained when being 'striong in't arm and thick in t'head was enough to come a qualified ambulance person wif you could rote learn the green and blue books , ' good little girls' in Nursing Management whose lack of education is remarkably obvious to anyone who has to interact with them ( and the negative, bullying, cool girls at the back of the bikesheds culture that pervades Nursing )
?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
IanA2 said:
mph1977 said:
thestew said:
all this worry about the cost of training JDs and them leaving for greener pastures. A quote from a fairly successful British businessman is very relevant.
"Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to".
which is something the NHS is notoriously poor at , however it;s not (solely) a political problem , 1. the problem is actually health professional education and selection 30 -40 years ago combined with 2. the utter lack of understanding of healthcare of the recent generation of lay Management.
1. No

2. Yes
with regard to 1 - yes it is as these are the individuals who are currently the alleged 'Leaders' of clinical practice in academe and in both lay and professional specific management ...

still a few too many stereotypical medical consultants, senior ' operational' ambulance managers who trrained when being 'striong in't arm and thick in t'head was enough to come a qualified ambulance person wif you could rote learn the green and blue books , ' good little girls' in Nursing Management whose lack of education is remarkably obvious to anyone who has to interact with them ( and the negative, bullying, cool girls at the back of the bikesheds culture that pervades Nursing )
Apologies I had assumed 1 related to doctors. Not so many Sir Lancelot Spratts around these days.
Agreed ambulance & nursing management is pretty dire. Remember many Trust Boards only have one doctor, but many have two or three nurses. Indeed you would be surprised how many CEO's (particularly in MH sector) are nurses by background. Most organisations are run by folks well qualified in it's core business. Not the NHS.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
sawman said:
PRTVR said:
I did say up to £40000, a quick Google shows I was not far off.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-all...
from a comment earlier I understood we were talking about under grad training ie Medical school.

just to be clear
undergrad medics are not paid they rack up student loans like everyone else

after graduation they get paid 22k according to your link, by the time they get to 40k they are registrars and will have significant responsibility, making many life and death decisions every day, dealing with difficult and challenging issues from dawn til dusk and back again.
This progression will have taken the thick end of 10 years and in addition to working long hours under extremely high pressure they will be studying to progress their training, providing the skills to succeed previous generations of consultants.

Having had the misfortune to spend a week in hospital before christmas, I can attest that these young people are a credit to themselves and the education system which has helped them develop.

If they all up and leave, to find employment opportunities where they are valued rather than rode roughshod over, good luck to them, but I fear that in 10 or 15 years time when we are in dire need high calibre medical staff, major questions will be asked as to how this was allowed to happen.

On the plus side for now the foundation trusts, by choosing not to impose the new contract will be easily able to fill posts by recruiting staff from the non foundation trusts who are going to have to impose the new contract.
If indeed they make the very brave decision not to implement the contract.

That said, that will create a new set of problems. I suspect those who might be considering non imposition, will have their retirement plans well set up. The DH is unforgiving.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
RYH64E said:
I've got a similar problem at work, too much to do and not enough time to do it, as I see it my options are: a) buy another new building, equip it with more of the same machinery that I already have, and employ more staff, or b) move from a single shift pattern to a two or three shift pattern and make better use of the facilities I already have. Is it so different for the NHS?
I refer you to Mr Tolstoy.
So educate me. If you've got expensive buildings full of expensive equipment where's the sense in using them as nothing more than hotels outside of normal working hours?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
IanA2 said:
RYH64E said:
I've got a similar problem at work, too much to do and not enough time to do it, as I see it my options are: a) buy another new building, equip it with more of the same machinery that I already have, and employ more staff, or b) move from a single shift pattern to a two or three shift pattern and make better use of the facilities I already have. Is it so different for the NHS?
I refer you to Mr Tolstoy.
So educate me. If you've got expensive buildings full of expensive equipment where's the sense in using them as nothing more than hotels outside of normal working hours?
I refer you to both Mr Tolstoy and the Marmalade.

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
I refer you to both Mr Tolstoy and the Marmalade.
1) spending is going up
2) plenty of efficiency savings can make the money go further


turbobloke

103,748 posts

259 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
IanA2 said:
RYH64E said:
I've got a similar problem at work, too much to do and not enough time to do it, as I see it my options are: a) buy another new building, equip it with more of the same machinery that I already have, and employ more staff, or b) move from a single shift pattern to a two or three shift pattern and make better use of the facilities I already have. Is it so different for the NHS?
I refer you to Mr Tolstoy.
So educate me. If you've got expensive buildings full of expensive equipment where's the sense in using them as nothing more than hotels outside of normal working hours?
Can't answer for Tolstoy referers, but no sense.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
1) spending is going up
2) plenty of efficiency savings can make the money go further
Fill your boots.




sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
Fill your boots.
Which are you disputing, that spending is going up or that there is significant scope for efficiency savings?

turbobloke

103,748 posts

259 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
sidicks said:
1) spending is going up
2) plenty of efficiency savings can make the money go further
Fill your boots.





Brucie said:
Good game!

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
IanA2 said:
sidicks said:
1) spending is going up
2) plenty of efficiency savings can make the money go further
Fill your boots.





Brucie said:
Good game!
Yup, the Upton quote is doing the rounds at the moment with Hunt's name appended.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Saturday 13th February 2016
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
I refer you to both Mr Tolstoy and the Marmalade.
I see you've made no attempt at all to address the points I've made, where's the sense in having expensive equipment housed in expensive hospitals and not using it outside of normal working hours because all the doctors have gone home?

To use your marmalade analogy, the current situation is like having all the marmalade on the first couple of slices of toast and nothing at all on the rest.