Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
BigMon said:
sidicks said:
I think people who are experienced in pensions are actually the best people to comment on the value of doctor's pensions...
When we have a thread devoted to public sector pensions your comments will prove invaluable.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=155...
sidicks said:
It seems strange for some doctors to claim that this protection has been removed, when clearly this is not the case.
It seems even more strange to be complaining (and using it as a reason for striking) that something 'will not happen' before there is actually any evidence as to whether the process will work or not...
It seems strange that Tdog7 having explained it so clearly that you still cant grasp it.It seems even more strange to be complaining (and using it as a reason for striking) that something 'will not happen' before there is actually any evidence as to whether the process will work or not...
Digga, JDs apply to work and be trained within a Deanery. The Bristol Deanery covers all the Bristol hospitals plus Swindon, Cheltenham, Gloucester, Yeovil, Weston S M, and Taunton. Some hospitals break the Deanery rules so much that they get removed from having doctors in training at them, some hospitals are so bad that no JDs are willing to go. About March each year All the JDs who are looking to progress rank their preferred Deanerys in order and may get offers. If a husband gets London and his wife gets Newcastle they may decline one. Even if they get the same Deanery imagine one is in Cheltenham for 6 months and the other is in Yeovil. At the end of 6 months they are just told move.
For all those of you that say yes all young aspirant professionals have to go through that about hours worked, name a profession that does that.
For all those of you that say yes all young aspirant professionals have to go through that about hours worked, name a profession that does that.
Hunt has weaseled his way out of the frying pan and hopefully in to the fire.
http://r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/1its40r6u7ale3d.h...
The Judgment begins by dismissing claims from the SoS that the case had “no merit”, and emphasises that the grounds presented were “serious and properly arguable” and an issue of “wider public importance”.
It was made clear that Jeremy Hunt is not imposing a contract on junior doctors, instead merely ‘recommending' it to NHS employers:
“One significant consequence of this litigation therefore has been that the Secretary of State has, properly and reasonably, taken the opportunity to put his position beyond doubt. Without granting declarations I can nonetheless, formally, record the position of the Secretary of State as articulated in these proceedings. First, the Secretary of State does not purport to exercise any statutory power that he may have to compel employers within the NHS to introduce the proposed terms and conditions. Second, he acknowledges, therefore, that in principle individual employers are free to negotiate different terms with employees…”
http://r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/1its40r6u7ale3d.h...
The Judgment begins by dismissing claims from the SoS that the case had “no merit”, and emphasises that the grounds presented were “serious and properly arguable” and an issue of “wider public importance”.
It was made clear that Jeremy Hunt is not imposing a contract on junior doctors, instead merely ‘recommending' it to NHS employers:
“One significant consequence of this litigation therefore has been that the Secretary of State has, properly and reasonably, taken the opportunity to put his position beyond doubt. Without granting declarations I can nonetheless, formally, record the position of the Secretary of State as articulated in these proceedings. First, the Secretary of State does not purport to exercise any statutory power that he may have to compel employers within the NHS to introduce the proposed terms and conditions. Second, he acknowledges, therefore, that in principle individual employers are free to negotiate different terms with employees…”
Lakeland9 said:
How any can present this hopeless attempt at a JR as some kind of victory is beyond' me. The claimants lost on all grounds of challenge. The concept that an employer cannot present the terms of a new fixed term contract to employees on terms he wants was fatuous.
I know only as much as anyone else about the dispute but I know a bit about JR and this was always a turkey.
It is far from a victory. However Hunt has been strutting about saying he was going to impose the contract and he was going to enforce the trusts imposed the contract, he has had to back down on both of those. It will be interesting to see what trusts with vast shortages of staff choose to do, Operate the old contract or pay hugely expensive and less productive locums.I know only as much as anyone else about the dispute but I know a bit about JR and this was always a turkey.
king get on with it, or if you don't like it, leave. spaximus said:
I understand you do not agree with me, that is your right as it is mine to see things differently. Hunt has throughout this dispute said one thing and his actions have been at odds. In court he said he was not imposing the contract, he had approved it only, at odds with what he told parliament for example. The truth is that the English NHS Trusts have been told to implement it otherwise they will face further financial penalties as some did suggest negotiating locally as they can see how many Dr's have left already and their inability to fill vacancies.
Now as this was a dispute against the government, as many on here have said elected on a promise to offer a 7 day service, with no clear understanding of what that meant, he was never going to back down unless there was a willingness on the part of Dr's to see people die. They were not hence emergency cover provided on all strike days supported by consultants.
I never said Hunt wanted people to die, but he would have held out and used that to beat the Doctors with that stick if a death could have been attributed to the strike, a price worth paying perhaps. In the same way Thatcher was prepared to see miners families starve the win is the most important thing to him.
And after all this even when his own department have said they cannot deliver what he has promised. Every one of the medical colleges have said the same, it is simply not possible.
Time will tell, my fear is that we will not have the NHS as it is in the future, which for all it's faults of which there are many, is still something as a society we should treasure. Yes it needs reforms but Dr's are not and never have been the problem and Hunt has portrayed them as the issue holding back everything.
As I said before 10 of my daughters fellow Dr's who have completed their f2 years have left to work abroad as a direct result of the imposition of the new contract. That is a loss we cannot afford. My daughter is a grafter, the hours she works are insane, regardless of what some want to believe, her aim is to do her best and help people as she progresses. If this new contract is as bad as it appears eventually I suspect she will join those 10 people.
I am not going to continue on this thread as it is pointless, people are entrenched, I hope I am wrong and Hunt can magic up fully trained competent Dr's (6000 vacancies at the moment) plus all the other staff to deliver what he has promised and everyone is allowed to work safely and the NHS is not sold to the highest bidder and private health cover an enforced norm.
One the best posts on this thread.Now as this was a dispute against the government, as many on here have said elected on a promise to offer a 7 day service, with no clear understanding of what that meant, he was never going to back down unless there was a willingness on the part of Dr's to see people die. They were not hence emergency cover provided on all strike days supported by consultants.
I never said Hunt wanted people to die, but he would have held out and used that to beat the Doctors with that stick if a death could have been attributed to the strike, a price worth paying perhaps. In the same way Thatcher was prepared to see miners families starve the win is the most important thing to him.
And after all this even when his own department have said they cannot deliver what he has promised. Every one of the medical colleges have said the same, it is simply not possible.
Time will tell, my fear is that we will not have the NHS as it is in the future, which for all it's faults of which there are many, is still something as a society we should treasure. Yes it needs reforms but Dr's are not and never have been the problem and Hunt has portrayed them as the issue holding back everything.
As I said before 10 of my daughters fellow Dr's who have completed their f2 years have left to work abroad as a direct result of the imposition of the new contract. That is a loss we cannot afford. My daughter is a grafter, the hours she works are insane, regardless of what some want to believe, her aim is to do her best and help people as she progresses. If this new contract is as bad as it appears eventually I suspect she will join those 10 people.
I am not going to continue on this thread as it is pointless, people are entrenched, I hope I am wrong and Hunt can magic up fully trained competent Dr's (6000 vacancies at the moment) plus all the other staff to deliver what he has promised and everyone is allowed to work safely and the NHS is not sold to the highest bidder and private health cover an enforced norm.
One of the things making shortages even worse is that locum doctors use to be classed as self employed and offset a lot of expenses, IR35 has closed the door on this and resulted in a cut in income meaning that many oversees doctors are now returning to their native country making rotas unfillable.
sidicks said:
Can you provide details of what this pension is that will significantly exceed the gold-plated pension available to NHS staff?
Perhaps you would like to lay out what the NHS pension is in your own words, as having looked at it recently it is certainly not the end of the rainbow it use to be.sidicks said:
And your solution to too many doctors leaving the NHS is?
The first absolute is the sacking of Hunt, when the head of any organisation is viewed with such hostility it infects the whole.The guberment is talking of increasing the number of uni places when there key problem is one of retention, my daughter has just started as a reg, of the 250 that started at unis with her over 50 % have left the NHS. There's a hole in your bucket dear Hunt, it is pointless pouring more in at the top.
In order to pass CT2 my daughter had to fill a log book of time in surgery, because of shortages of non trainees, she had 3 choices, not give patients time they need, fail the year, work 3 plus hours a day for free. Several of her friends have failed the year, which of course means that in 5 years time they will not be graduating as consultants.
I started this whole thread because we, the users of the NHS, will feel these problems 2,3, 4 years down the road.
How pleasing that nothing has changed over 5 years at PH. Start a thread and some other keyboard warrior will rip you a new one.
If you care to read the previous 84 pages you will find countless examples of people claiming the NHS should be scrapped and we don't need junior doctors who's work is no more important than any others.
Not party political in any way but was reminded of it when Hunts smug face appeared on my TV this morning.
I merely wished to remind those who had expressed opinions how wrong they were.
If you care to read the previous 84 pages you will find countless examples of people claiming the NHS should be scrapped and we don't need junior doctors who's work is no more important than any others.
Not party political in any way but was reminded of it when Hunts smug face appeared on my TV this morning.
I merely wished to remind those who had expressed opinions how wrong they were.
Edited by Dixy on Wednesday 25th March 13:09
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