Junior Doctor's contracts petition

Junior Doctor's contracts petition

Author
Discussion

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
spaximus said:
There are many many things wrong and waste is biblical but that is outside this issue.
Possibly not- if funds are limited then surely reducing waste can be part of the solution.

turbobloke

103,741 posts

259 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
spaximus said:
There are many many things wrong and waste is biblical but that is outside this issue.
Possibly not- if funds are limited then surely reducing waste can be part of the solution.
Yes, obvious surely. The sums of money involved are very large, indeed biblical. More money on that scale could employ significantly more junior doctors, more flexibly, to the greater satisfaction of both sides than at present. And give the capacity to use more kit more often.

968 said:
...guess what, it comes down to money again...

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
Yes, obvious surely.
But it's not nearly as emotive as attacking any reforms to the system.

spaximus

4,230 posts

252 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
But it's not nearly as emotive as attacking any reforms to the system.
So why not attack that first instead of the JD contract? Without the money you cannot get the service Hunt has promised, regardless of clinical need. It would take years to cut waste and if planned by then extra Doctors could be in training.

Dixy

Original Poster:

2,913 posts

204 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Are you suggesting that money is wasted on Junior Doctors or that they waste money, if so please explain, if not then take it to its own thread, or do I have to start that thread for you as well.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Dixy said:
Are you suggesting that money is wasted on Junior Doctors or that they waste money
Nobody said that- what was said was that the NHS wastes huge amounts. Getting rid of that waste would afford many things people would like.

Dixy said:
or do I have to start that thread for you as well.
Gee, would you sir? I'd like that.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
spaximus said:
It would take years to cut waste
Why?

IroningMan

10,154 posts

245 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
spaximus said:
It would take years to cut waste
Why?
Because Health Service.

One man's waste is another man's vested interest/career path.

Guybrush

4,330 posts

205 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
IroningMan said:
Rovinghawk said:
spaximus said:
It would take years to cut waste
Why?
Because Health Service.

One man's waste is another man's vested interest/career path.
Yes. The NHS is a massively complex hierarchy and (typical of the public sector) the simplest of transactions involve way too many people / steps in the process and any simplification by removing these unnecessary links in the chain means that the break needs to be 'reconnected'. Simplifying the stupidly complex procedures will be complicated. It has to be done though.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Thank you both but I'd really like to hear Spaximus defend why it would take years for the NHS to put its house in order, during which time we ought to throw more water into the leaky bucket.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
Thank you both but I'd really like to hear Spaximus defend why it would take years for the NHS to put its house in order, during which time we ought to throw more water into the leaky bucket.
And fight every proposed reform tooth and nail.

NoddyonNitrous

2,100 posts

231 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Guybrush said:
Yes. The NHS is a massively complex hierarchy and (typical of the public sector) the simplest of transactions involve way too many people / steps in the process and any simplification by removing these unnecessary links in the chain means that the break needs to be 'reconnected'. Simplifying the stupidly complex procedures will be complicated. It has to be done though.
I can't agree more.

spaximus

4,230 posts

252 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
spaximus said:
It would take years to cut waste
Why?
Dixy, no I am not suggesting that for a second. Junior Doctors are not the issue.

Now as for why there is so much waste in the NHS and why it takes so long to change. The very people who are tasked to make savings are the very ones who are most resistant.
My wife has taken over certain offices in CSU reorganisations. In one there are five more staff than the others, doing less volume of work. The person in charge there actually asked for more staff. She is changing this but the resistance is high to change. If you have a lot of staff in the NHS it is status.
Purchasing, each hospitals has people involved, they don't want a central contract where an order can be drawn from. They love the negotiations even when they are crap, The suppliers love it as they get more from one hospital for exactly the same products.

Some one summed it up well, one mans waste is another career path. With waste in the NHS it is like trying to change the course of a super tanker with two men in a rowing boat.


turbobloke

103,741 posts

259 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
spaximus said:
It would take years to cut waste
If so, and even then it may not be like that across the piece, make what progress can be made while prioritising fraud and error.

spaximus

4,230 posts

252 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
spaximus said:
It would take years to cut waste
If so, and even then it may not be like that across the piece, make what progress can be made while prioritising fraud and error.
Agreed, we need to start but it is not the Junior Doctors that are the big issue.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
spaximus said:
With waste in the NHS it is like trying to change the course of a super tanker with two men in a rowing boat.
Better that they start without delay, then.

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
spaximus said:
With waste in the NHS it is like trying to change the course of a super tanker with two men in a rowing boat.
Better that they start without delay, then.
Need to find some spare cash for a couple of oars 1st.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
Need to find some spare cash for a couple of oars 1st.
Without knowing the exact details of the NHS budget, I'd suggest that they have a great deal of money flowing in.

turbobloke

103,741 posts

259 months

Sunday 14th February 2016
quotequote all
spaximus said:
turbobloke said:
spaximus said:
It would take years to cut waste
If so, and even then it may not be like that across the piece, make what progress can be made while prioritising fraud and error.
Agreed, we need to start but it is not the Junior Doctors that are the big issue.
There is a link however when the significant sums of money that would be released i.e. recovered by meaningful attempts (and successful attempts) to reduce waste, fraud and error could be used to fund more JDs and also fund more acceptable conditions for them within the same funding envelope.

Dixy

Original Poster:

2,913 posts

204 months

Monday 15th February 2016
quotequote all
And exactly how does enraging and demoralizing and disincentivising a significant part of the workforce help reduce waste, fraud and error?