Junior Doctor's contracts petition

Junior Doctor's contracts petition

Author
Discussion

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
IanA2 said:
loafer123 said:
I do not know who is fibbing, but one side must be as the BMA allege more hours for less pay whilst the government say less hours for the same pay.

Which is it?
Have a guess, one lot save lives, the other lot fiddle their expenses...go on, give it a stab.
And one lot is trying to cut costs. How can doctors be better off?
Yes, they want to reduce the percentage of GDP invested in health to even lower than it already is. It is already below the EU average. Maybe some don't think health is important. I do, and I was rather grateful to the Royal Marsden when they performed life saving surgery.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Stevanos said:
IanA2 said:
Have a guess, one lot save lives, the other lot fiddle their expenses...go on, give it a stab.
That is not a useful post, why bother!
Really? Don't you do humour?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
Stevanos said:
I'm not sure I will get a unbiased set of facts from the BBC.

Why are they not allowed to negotiate individually? What about the ones that are not members of trade unions?
Why are doctors not allowed to negotiate individually? Is that a serious question?
There are 1.3 M folks employed by the NHS. Individual negotiations might eat up a fair bit of time.

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
IanA2 said:
loafer123 said:
I do not know who is fibbing, but one side must be as the BMA allege more hours for less pay whilst the government say less hours for the same pay.

Which is it?
Have a guess, one lot save lives, the other lot fiddle their expenses...go on, give it a stab.
And one lot is trying to cut costs. How can doctors be better off?
I don't think they are saying better off in monetary terms - they say they will get paid the same overall, less for weekends and evenings, so that there can be affordable rota'ing of more doctors at weekends and less during the week.

Why is that a bad thing?

Stevanos

700 posts

136 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
There are 1.3 M folks employed by the NHS. Individual negotiations might eat up a fair bit of time.
So for the ones not belonging to the unions, what happens with them?

Patent

804 posts

172 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
How do you increase the service on the weekend without paying for it or increasing numbers of staff to do it?
Pay the existing staff less and get them to work more? Or Invest in the service?
Let's hazard a guess as to which path Jeremy is following?

Stevanos

700 posts

136 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
Really? Don't you do humour?
I do, but it wasn't funny!

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Patent said:
How do you increase the service on the weekend without paying for it or increasing numbers of staff to do it?
Pay the existing staff less and get them to work more? Or Invest in the service?
Let's hazard a guess as to which path Jeremy is following?
You pay them less for weekend overtime and more for weekday hours, so they earn the same.

At least that is what the Health Secretary said this morning.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
This person is in charge of NHS.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/08/je...

I'm sure glad that there is money for 'as many studies as necessary into homeopathy'.
Not so sure he's "in charge" any more. Looks to be losing his grip. In any case it's Simon Stevens who's really in charge.

On the homeopathy stuff my guess is that Hunt was getting his ear bashed by Treddinick who's aways banging on about this stuff. He probably finds it difficult to whack it straight back as HRH Charlie 's a strong proponent of mystical stuff. Iirc most CCG's have said no to this stuff.

Stevanos

700 posts

136 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
There are 1.3 M folks employed by the NHS. Individual negotiations might eat up a fair bit of time.
But doctors are quite senior? They seriously don't have the option to negotiate their contracts on their own?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
Patent said:
How do you increase the service on the weekend without paying for it or increasing numbers of staff to do it?
Pay the existing staff less and get them to work more? Or Invest in the service?
Let's hazard a guess as to which path Jeremy is following?
You pay them less for weekend overtime and more for weekday hours, so they earn the same.

At least that is what the Health Secretary said this morning.
The clue is in who said it.

Patent

804 posts

172 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
Patent said:
How do you increase the service on the weekend without paying for it or increasing numbers of staff to do it?
Pay the existing staff less and get them to work more? Or Invest in the service?
Let's hazard a guess as to which path Jeremy is following?
You pay them less for weekend overtime and more for weekday hours, so they earn the same.

At least that is what the Health Secretary said this morning.
But if you are working nights and weekends providing the 24/7 service you work less during the week.....
In essence the new contract results in a pay cut.....


IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Stevanos said:
IanA2 said:
There are 1.3 M folks employed by the NHS. Individual negotiations might eat up a fair bit of time.
But doctors are quite senior? They seriously don't have the option to negotiate their contracts on their own?
Doctors are not senior until they become consultants. Juniors are on standard contracts as are consultants. Check the BMA website for model contracts. FT's can in theory use different contracts but I'm not aware that many, or indeed any, do so. There's a very small amount of room for negotiation in the 2003 contract, maybe an extra session if you're lucky.

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Patent said:
loafer123 said:
Patent said:
How do you increase the service on the weekend without paying for it or increasing numbers of staff to do it?
Pay the existing staff less and get them to work more? Or Invest in the service?
Let's hazard a guess as to which path Jeremy is following?
You pay them less for weekend overtime and more for weekday hours, so they earn the same.

At least that is what the Health Secretary said this morning.
But if you are working nights and weekends providing the 24/7 service you work less during the week.....
In essence the new contract results in a pay cut.....
Just to be clear, I really have no axe to grind here, I just want to understand the issues.

So, if they work less during the week and work more at weekends, but overall get paid the same, the problem must be that they don't want to be rota'ed for unsocial hours without being paid extra rate overtime for it? Is that right?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Stevanos said:
IanA2 said:
Really? Don't you do humour?
I do, but it wasn't funny!
Sorry, I'll try and tailor my humour for the humourless....

TheEnd

15,370 posts

187 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
I thought the main thing was not going to be classing Saturdays as overtime and paying extra for it.

Seems fair to me.

Patent

804 posts

172 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
Just to be clear, I really have no axe to grind here, I just want to understand the issues.

So, if they work less during the week and work more at weekends, but overall get paid the same, the problem must be that they don't want to be rota'ed for unsocial hours without being paid extra rate overtime for it? Is that right?
It's really quite complicated but some of the issues are:
1) Is the increased mortality rate at the weekend due to less doctors working at the weekend?
2) if you increase doctor numbers at the weekend who does the work during the week?
3) not all doctors provide the emergency service. Should a doctor who works more weekdays and less nights be paid more than a doctor who works more unsociable hours?
4) what is the definition of sociable hours?
5) there has been no negotiation on these issues. The contract is to be imposed.
6) modelling of the proposed contract results in more hours worked for a 15 - 30% pay cut! Who in their right mind is going to agree to that?

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
TheEnd said:
I thought the main thing was not going to be classing Saturdays as overtime and paying extra for it.

Seems fair to me.
Do you honestly think it's as simple as that? There are tens of thousands of Juniors on the streets today, they are fighting for the NHS itself. Medics are almost impossible to stir into action. Hunt has managed it, Hunt wants to shut the NHS down and reducing the wage-bill is a classic strategy when plumping up an asset for sale.

Read my first post and ask yourself if you'd want a loved one treated by a medic who hasn't
seen their bed for three days.

IanA2

2,762 posts

161 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
Patent said:
loafer123 said:
Just to be clear, I really have no axe to grind here, I just want to understand the issues.

So, if they work less during the week and work more at weekends, but overall get paid the same, the problem must be that they don't want to be rota'ed for unsocial hours without being paid extra rate overtime for it? Is that right?
It's really quite complicated but some of the issues are:
1) Is the increased mortality rate at the weekend due to less doctors working at the weekend?
2) if you increase doctor numbers at the weekend who does the work during the week?
3) not all doctors provide the emergency service. Should a doctor who works more weekdays and less nights be paid more than a doctor who works more unsociable hours?
4) what is the definition of sociable hours?
5) there has been no negotiation on these issues. The contract is to be imposed.
6) modelling of the proposed contract results in more hours worked for a 15 - 30% pay cut! Who in their right mind is going to agree to that?
Weekend mortality myth recently debunked. Even Bruce Keogh no longer accepts it.

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Saturday 17th October 2015
quotequote all
IanA2 said:
Do you honestly think it's as simple as that? There are tens of thousands of Juniors on the streets today, they are fighting for the NHS itself. Medics are almost impossible to stir into action. Hunt has managed it, Hunt wants to shut the NHS down and reducing the wage-bill is a classic strategy when plumping up an asset for sale.
Nonsense like this doesn't help your case.